The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Presiding Officer (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. Statement by the Presiding Officer

On behalf of the National Assembly for Wales, I want to express our heartfelt sympathy to the family, friends and colleagues of Jo Cox MP, who died so tragically last week. Jo Cox was killed in the course of her public duty, faithfully serving her constituents as a democratically elected Member of Parliament. The shock and sadness of this loss has been felt greatly right across the United Kingdom, and the many who attended a vigil in her memory outside this Senedd building are testament to that. Her loss has been felt deeply as a personal tragedy for those who knew and loved her, but also as an attack on our democratic life. We will continue to uphold the values that Jo stood for—compassion, tolerance and respect—in her honour.Before I ask for statements from party leaders, and as we stand to honour Jo Cox’s life, let us do so by recalling the words of Ifor ap Glyn’s poem read in this Chamber only two weeks ago today:‘we give thanks there are no bullet holes / in the pillars of this house, / just a cloud of witnesses / who’ll maintain us in all manner of beliefs.Let us therefore remember Jo Cox, Member of Parliament.

Assembly Members stood for a minute’s silence.

Thank you. I now invite party leaders, and others, to say a few words, starting with the First Minister, Carwyn Jones.

Carwyn Jones AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Jo Cox, or Jo Leadbeater, or little Jo, as many in Wales will have remembered her, led a full and brilliant life. She was known to many of us in Welsh Labour when she worked for Glenys Kinnock, and developed her passion for international development and social justice there. There is little doubt that the attack on Jo Cox was political in nature. It was an unforgivable and brutal attack, not just on a female politician, going about her work, but against everything she stood for. But it’s not the politics we should reflect on today, it’s the person.She had very many friends in Wales, and everyone knew her political career was going to be something special, not because of her ambition, but because of her fierce determination, her decency, and her absolute fundamental desire to get things done. That meant offering the hand of friendship across the political divide. Tomorrow would have been Jo’s forty-second birthday, and there’ll be events across the world, where people will repeat that phrase that has already become a mantra,‘we are far more united and have far more in common…than the things that divide us.’Llywydd, Jo’s life was cut short, but it was a life lived in full, and a life that had given us inspiration. And it is that inspiration we must focus on today and in the future, and not just the devastating events that took place last Thursday.

I now call on the leader of the opposition, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: Diolch, Lywydd. I never met Jo Cox, but I’m sure I’m not alone in identifying with aspects about what we’ve heard about her, and with some of the politics that she represented. Rather than use my words today, I’d prefer to use hers. In her maiden speech in Westminster, Jo Cox MP said,‘Our communities have been deeply enhanced by immigration, be it of Irish Catholics across the constituency or of Muslims from Gujarat in India or from Pakistan, principally from Kashmir. While we celebrate our diversity, what surprises me time and time again as I travel around the constituency is that we are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us.’Now, it remains to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt whether she was killed for holding these beliefs, but it seems to me that the most fitting tribute we can pay to this woman is to remember her words and, in her memory, for all us to work for a society and a politics that is free from hate.

I now call on the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. I make no pretence to have known Jo Cox, but the events last Thursday mortified us all. Pure evil visited Jo Cox and her family last week, and her constituency, when she was going about her job, which she cared passionately about, and I think she said, in her own words, it was a job that she thought was a job for which she’d been groomed for life, to achieve success for the communities that she represented and the causes that she held dear. And she certainly took those causes right to the heart of power in Parliament and Government, and worked across the political divide, and proved where politicians do work together, we actually achieve far more.One thing we must remember is that a family today will not feel the warmth and love of a mother and also a wife, and they are the ones who have lost the most in all this, but we as a society are far poorer from losing such as individual as Jo Cox, and we should never let the flame that she lit go out, and we should stand up for the beliefs and causes that she fought for and make sure that the evil that visited this country, her constituency, and her family last week, does not triumph.

I now call on the leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: I would like to associate myself and my party with everything that has been said here today. Like Andrew Davies, I didn’t know Jo Cox; she was clearly a very remarkable person on the threshold of what I’m sure would have been a very successful political career. The impact of her tragic death would not have achieved the huge publicity that it has but for the nature of her personality, and although I didn’t know her, I did know the last Member of Parliament to be assassinated, Ian Gow, very, very well, so I do understand, from personal experience, the effect upon those who knew her. Rachel Reeves said yesterday in the House of Commons what Andrew Davies has just reminded us of, that this is a personal tragedy as well. In as much as Batley and Spen may acquire a new Member of Parliament, but those poor children will not acquire a new mother, and that certainly should affect us all. And we should go forth, I think, in our different parties and in our different way, in the spirit in which Jo Cox lived her life and fought her politics—with compassion and respect, and, first and foremost, a respect for the whole of humankind. I think that, in her death, she will achieve far more than any of us will achieve in our lives.

And finally, Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch. Jo Cox MP—a passionate activist, and unwavering humanitarian, a driven campaigner and a committed feminist, a friend, daughter, sister, wife, mother, and proud to the MP for Batley and Spen, the Yorkshire community in which she grew up. Jo Cox was one of us, and we are all profoundly shocked, devastated and moved by Jo’s murder. But today is a time to remember the incredibly significant and valuable contribution that Jo Cox made in her all too short time with us.I was only lucky enough to meet Jo briefly through the Labour Women’s Network, so ahead of today’s tribute, I sought guidance from those who knew Jo far, far better than me. Jo achieved so much before entering the House of Commons just over a year ago, with Oxfam, in the European Parliament, and encouraging Labour women into politics. Jo was chair of Labour Women’s Network from 2010 to 2014, part of a team of women with big ambitions to develop the organisation to support and bring through Labour women from all walks of life into the party and into public life. The focus and determination that Jo brought to LWN to drive forward and actually get things done was a focus and determination that she brought to everything that she did. A friend and colleague of Jo’s wrote in the last few days how Jo supported and empowered other women by, ‘Half holding you upright and half shoving you forward’.The alliances that Jo built and what she achieved in her 13 months as an MP are testament not just to the tenacity and the depth of experience she brought to the issues she focused on and the causes that she championed, but also to her personality. Friends have shared how Jo was relentlessly positive and a bundle of energy—a force of nature that enjoyed life to the full. They’ve written how, in reflecting on Jo’s life, it’s not just what she did, but the how she did it: the power of common action and not simply believing in her ideals, but living them and doing something to advance them every single day. To me, Jo Cox personified everything a politician should be, and, as we celebrate Jo’s life, let us go forward with her own words shaping our deeds: we have far more in common with each other than that which divides us. Diolch. Diolch yn fawr, Jo Cox MP.

I thank you all.

2. 1. Questions to the First Minister

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

We now move to the first item on our agenda today, which is questions to the First Minister. The first question is from Vikki Howells.

<p>Cancer Detection Rates</p>

Vikki Howells AC: 1. What actions is the Welsh Government taking to improve cancer detection rates? OAQ(5)0064(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: We will continue with our population screening programmes for breast, cervical and bowel cancer, as well as improve our support to GPs to better recognise symptoms and improve the access to testing.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, First Minister. Last week was Cervical Screening Awareness Week, a Europe-wide project to raise awareness of the role of screening in tackling cervical cancer. While mortality rates for cervical cancer are dropping, there was also a slight decline in screening uptake, and I’m particularly concerned that one in three 25 to 29-year-olds don’t attend their smear tests. How can the Welsh Government encourage more women of all ages, but younger women in particular, to attend the screenings that could save their lives?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, the screening engagement team of Public Health Wales is working with local public health teams, health boards and primary care clusters to consider cervical screening uptake in each region and planned specific activities to improve uptake, including social media activity. There has been a specific focus on the groups in each region where uptake is lowest.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: It’s not unusual for a GP to fail to diagnose the symptoms of cancer during the first appointment. But, if a diagnosis is ultimately made following a second or third appointment, does the First Minister agree that the clock should start ticking, in terms of when treatment should start, from the time of that first appointment, because swift treatment for patients is the most important thing, not hitting Government targets?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, it is the patient, of course, who is important in this. But, as regards diagnostic tests, for example, may I say that we’ve seen a significant improvement in the past year? The figures for April 2016, for example, are 23 per cent lower than the figures for April of last year, and 40 per cent lower than the high point in July of last year. What is important, of course, is that tests are conducted and that results are received as soon as possible.

Angela Burns AC: First Minister, young children between nought and 14 are far more likely—or, in fact, are twice as likely—to be diagnosed through emergency presentation for cancer. I would like you to consider the children’s charity CLIC Sargent and their call that the refreshed Wales cancer delivery plan, which is intended for later this year, should improve initial and ongoing training in children and young people’s health for primary care professionals, and should report on the level of access that GP practices have to paediatric and young people’s health expertise, to address just this issue. To be between nought and 14 years old and not find out that you have cancer until you have been rushed into accident and emergency is not really an acceptable way forward. I think your Government needs to look to see how it can address that situation.

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes, many cancers, of course, present themselves at A&E. People live with the symptoms, not knowing what the symptoms are. With children, I suspect—though I am not medically qualified—the assumption will always be that it is something else. It is difficult for GPs to diagnose cancer at an early stage. Nevertheless, as part of the refreshing of the cancer delivery plan, we will look at what can be done in order to assist GPs and other primary care professionals to improve their ability to detect cancer, where that’s possible, as quickly as possible.

Caroline Jones AC: First Minister, as someone who has survived cancer, I can tell you from first-hand experience that early diagnosis is key to survival. GPs are the front line in the fight against cancer, and are critical for early diagnosis. First Minister, Cancer Research UK found that there is a huge variation in GPs’ direct access to diagnostic tests in Wales. What will your Government do over the next five years to ensure that every GP has access to vital diagnostic tests? Diolch.

Carwyn Jones AC: I think I answered this question in response to the question posed by the Member for Ynys Môn—that is that reducing diagnostic waiting times is a priority for this Government. We see from the figures that I mentioned earlier that diagnostic waiting times are reducing very quickly in Wales.

<p>Natural Resources Wales Staff Survey</p>

Bethan Sayed AC: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement on the latest survey of staff at Natural Resources Wales? OAQ(5)0059(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. It’s a big file, as the Member can see. I am aware of the staff survey results. It is, of course, a matter for the board of Natural Resources Wales as an arm’s-length body, but the Cabinet Secretary has met with the chair and chief executive of NRW. She has outlined her disappointment in the figures and stressed the importance of proper staff engagement.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you for the answer, First Minister. The survey results clearly indicate that there’s a problem with senior management, and it’s far worse than last year. I’ve had constituents who’ve contacted me who don’t wish to be named, and they’re fearful for the comments that they’ve sent me, saying that they had a Skype meeting with the directors and their leaders last week—and this included more in-depth analysis of the survey results—which made for worse reading than those that were published. I think the feeling from that meeting was that the problems were with lower management, and that they should go off and try to fix it themselves, although they see it more as something that needs to be fixed from the top. First Minister, can you tell me how this will be done, given that it is an organisation, as you say, that’s arm’s length from yourself? How will you achieve the £158 million savings over 10 years when, as I believe from staff there, processes and contracts that are now in place cost more than when they were fulfilled by the legacy organisation?

Carwyn Jones AC: Those are responsibilities for the chair and chief executive to make sure that staff feel valued. I notice from the survey that, overall, staff were more satisfied than they were last year. But, it’s right to say that, when we drill down underneath those figures in terms of perceptions of management, for example, career development and understanding of the organisation’s direction, the figures were not as good. As I mentioned earlier on, the Cabinet Secretary has met with the chair and chief executive. It’s been made clear to them that they must drive positive change from the top, and make sure that people do feel more valued within the organisation.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, according to the survey, it is a cause of great concern that staff in NRW feel that they don’t have access to learning and personal development opportunities when they need them. Of course, it is important that people do have these opportunities. Given that Natural Resources Wales is accountable to your Government, how does the Government ensure that staff in this organisation can access training and learning opportunities to support their professional development?

Carwyn Jones AC: Although it is an arm’s-length body, the Secretary has a clear interest in ensuring that the body works as it should. In doing this, the Minister will want to see these figures improve, and will want to see that there is evidence that pathways to developing individuals’ careers are developed and are available as they require it.

Gareth Bennett AC: The Plaid Cymru Member opposite is right to draw the First Minister’s attention to the recent staff survey at NRW. The results are both disappointing and concerning. Is the dissatisfaction of the staff in any way a reflection on how well this body is serving the general public?

Carwyn Jones AC: No, I don’t believe that’s right. Natural Resources Wales are doing a good job in terms of managing our forestry resource, and making sure that advice is made available to businesses in order to mitigate their environmental impact, and of course in terms of managing our countryside for the benefit of our people.

<p>Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders</p>

I now call on the party leaders to question the First Minister. First of all, the leader of the opposition, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: Before I start my questions today, First Minister, I’d like to place on record our congratulations to the Welsh football team and the fans who did us proud in France last night. I could go on in that vein, but I’m going to move on to my questions now.First Minister, you and I have crossed swords on many occasions about the national health service. Last night, I hosted a packed public meeting in Treorchy in the Rhondda, a community that’s due to lose its doctors’ surgery because the health board tell me there’s a shortage of doctors, which we all know about. Without getting into arguments about how many doctors we need, will you confirm that, if we leave the European Union on Thursday, the Welsh NHS will find it even more difficult to recruit doctors from overseas than it has been up until now?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, could I first of all express my slight annoyance that the leader of the opposition has got in before me when it comes to congratulating the Welsh football team? A wonderful result last night. The Cabinet Secretary, Ken Skates, was there—he’s looking well after such an evening as we saw. This is hugely important for Wales in terms of our profile around the world and the fact that there are fewer and fewer people who will say, ‘Wales? Where’s that?’ I think that’s hugely important. But the leader of the opposition raises a hugely important point, and that is, ‘What message are we conveying to doctors and other primary care professionals if we leave the EU?’ We know, for example, it is said that people who come here who are migrants put pressure on the NHS. I don’t buy that; they are mainly young, they’re working and they barely see a doctor. The reality is that they contribute, particularly those professionals who work in the NHS, to helping to care for sick people in Wales. The effect of a ‘leave’ vote would be to send the message to medical professionals, ‘Don’t come here. You can go anywhere else in Europe, but don’t think that you’re coming here’, and that will make it far more difficult to attract the medical expertise that we need into Wales.

Leanne Wood AC: Thank you for your answer, First Minister. You’ll be aware that, over many years now, Plaid Cymru has advocated incentives to attract doctors to Wales. One important factor, if we are going to attract people to come and live and work here as GPs while we train more doctors, is the state of the economy. How much more difficult do you assess it will be to attract GPs to those areas where vacancies are difficult to fill if the economy takes the dip that it’s predicted to if there is a ‘leave’ vote on Thursday?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, if you are a doctor qualified in the European Union and you are told, ‘You can travel to 27 other countries without the need for a visa, or come to the UK but you need a visa’, it doesn’t take a genius to work out that it’s far easier to go to the other countries. So, the UK will become a more difficult place to recruit medical staff into. But, yes, of course, there will be an effect on the economy. I have spent much of my time talking to businesses, attracting investment into Wales, and the unemployment figures are evidence of how that has worked. This would be a self-inflicted wound. We would not be able to offer the same kind of certainty to business as Ireland would, or as France would, or as Germany would because we would not be able to say for years what kind of access to the European market businesses could enjoy if they were to be based in Wales, and that is bad for Welsh business.

Leanne Wood AC: I don’t disagree with you there, First Minister. We may well have disagreements on the future of the Welsh NHS and what needs to happen to safeguard it, but where we do agree is on our joint opposition to privatisation. Now, I wonder whether or not you think it’s more or less likely that the NHS will be opened up for privatisation in the event of a ‘leave’ vote. We know that right-wing politicians across a number of parties in Westminster are keen to sign up to TTIP, the transatlantic trade and investment partnership, which will, of course, make it easier to sell off public services to their mates. Do you think that we’ve got a better chance of avoiding the damage that could be caused to our NHS from TTIP by joining and remaining with other countries that can resist it?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, the reality is that the EU and the US are large trading blocks. The UK is much, much smaller. It comes down to how much muscle you have in the market at the end of the day. She and I are in the same position—we would not want to see any kind of privatisation in the NHS. Frankly, I see the figures in the ‘leave’ campaign—Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Nigel Farage—and I do not trust them with the future of our NHS. I do not trust them with the future of a publicly funded, publicly available NHS, and, from my perspective, I’m glad that the health service is devolved so that they can’t get their hands on the Welsh NHS. That’s hugely important. But, no, she and I, I am sure, will share some scepticism that the people who front that campaign have suddenly become converted to the virtues of the power of the state to ensure the welfare of its people.

The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. I, too, identify with the sentiments of the leader of the opposition and the First Minister around the victory last night. It’s caused problems in my office because I had several members out there, and going in a camper van for a week is not a brilliant advert, with five football supporters, and now they’ll have to extend their time for the next match and, hopefully, a continuation through the championship. But, a huge congratulations to the Welsh fans on the way they’ve conducted themselves, and an even bigger congratulations to the Welsh team on the way they played last night.First Minister, it is vital that we make improvements in autism services here in Wales. Last Saturday was Autistic Pride Day, and, in 2009, the Westminster Government passed an Act to improve autistic services in England. Part of our manifesto was to bring forward an Act in this Assembly term to seek the improvements here in Wales, so that health boards and other public bodies would know exactly the commitments they would have to make to the 34,000 who have this diagnosis and battle to get the help and support they require here in Wales. Will you commit to your Government bringing forward an Act to support autistic services here in Wales, similar to the one that was brought forward in 2009 in Westminster?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, it is something we are actively considering. I’m not saying we will simply replicate what happened in Westminster. I believe it needs consideration separately from other legislation, but, certainly, it is something that we’re willing to discuss with other parties in order to ensure that the services we have for autism are the best they can be.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. I’d like to pay tribute to my colleague Mark Isherwood who has championed the cause around autistic services here in Wales for many, many years. Whilst those discussions are going on, and certainly you didn’t rule out the opportunity to bring forward legislation, what—[Interruption.]

Carry on. [Laughter.]

Andrew RT Davies AC: What improvements can we see, while those discussions are being undertaken, around the legislation framework? Because there are 34,000 people in Wales who have a diagnosis and the National Autistic Society identify services to support them as ‘patchy’ here in Wales. So, what can we expect in the intervening time, when we will hopefully find agreement to bring forward legislation to enshrine the rights of people with a diagnosis to expect the service delivery here in Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: The first challenge, of course, is for there to be a diagnosis, and that can take some time. Because autism, as the Member knows, exists on a spectrum, there are some elements of autism that are not easily diagnosed, and the diagnosis is the first step. He’s asked about those who’ve been diagnosed. Well, we seek to ensure, of course, consistency across Wales—that’s why we ring-fenced mental health spending to make sure that there were more services available. That’s why, of course, we’ve provided more money for child and adolescent mental health services, because the demand on CAMHS was substantial and we recognised that demand needed to be met. We expect all local health boards to deliver a consistent service to support not just those who are diagnosed with autism, but those, of course, who care for them as well.

Andrew RT Davies AC: You introduced CAMHS into the line of questioning—I’d like to move into that area, if I may. Mental health services for young people in particular have seen a massive increase in the referrals to CAMHS—120-odd per cent since 2010. The waiting times in this particular area are horrendous, to say the least, with one in eight people who are referred waiting in excess of 40 weeks, when the Welsh Government’s own referral time target is 14 weeks. What action will the Welsh Government, the new Welsh Government, be doing to actually tackle these chronic waiting times, which, as I’ve said, have seen one in eight young people waiting in excess of 40 weeks for the help and support that they require, when in the last financial year the Welsh Government did cut the money to CAMHS by nearly 7 per cent?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, no, that’s not correct. Extra money has gone into CAMHS. CAMHS, in some ways, was the victim of its own success at the beginning. Once it was known that the service was there, GPs were far more able to refer into CAMHS, and, indeed, it’s right to say that demand did become quite high. We then took steps, of course, to make sure the funding was available in order to meet that demand, and I fully expect to see waiting times reduce over time, as the money flows through the system.

The leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Lywydd. Last night’s result shows that small countries can take on much bigger ones in the world and succeed, if they approach a task in the right spirit. I’m sure that Ken Skates will be an advantage to Wales whenever it’s playing around the world, if he can produce results like last night’s.But, reverting to the question that was asked by the leader of the opposition, there is no reason, is there, why a points-based immigration system, as there is in Australia, should in any way restrict the number of doctors coming to the UK, but it might enable us to restrict those who don’t come for jobs, who compete with others. I wonder if he agrees with what Len McCluskey, the Labour Party’s largest financial contributor, is reported as having said in the papers today, that opening borders to eastern European countries in 2004 has led to‘a gigantic experiment at the expense of ordinary workers’,and has led to‘sustained pressure on living standards and a systematic attempt to hold down wages and cut the costs of social provision for working people.’

Carwyn Jones AC: I haven’t seen those comments. At the beginning, he seemed to be advocating Welsh independence, talking about small countries. I’m sure he’ll explain his position a little later. I don’t believe that, and I’ll explain why: the reason why people are angry at the moment is they feel their jobs aren’t secure. They remember the days when there were jobs available, when they had long-term contracts, when there were pensions at the end, when there was strong trade union recognition. Those rights were stripped away consistently over many, many years, and what we see now is too many people in jobs where the wages are lower, where there’s casualisation, where there are zero-hours contracts and where trade union recognition is denied to them. We see that, of course, encapsulated in the last few weeks with Mike Ashley—that’s the sort of future that we don’t want to see on these benches, not by any stretch of the imagination. That’s what drives people’s anger. But, the reality is that the levels of migration will remain much the same as they are for the next few years at least, whatever happens. It’s not a question of migrants causing the problem; it’s a question of the fact that the law isn’t strong enough, and trade union recognition isn’t strong enough to make sure that people have the secure jobs that they need. I’ve no doubt at all that those people who advocate that we should leave the EU are not going to suddenly turn round and say, ‘Let’s go back to the days when there was strong trade union recognition, when we had higher wages, when we had longer-term contracts, we didn’t have zero-hours contracts, when people had pensions at the end of their jobs.’ I don’t see any of that coming from the ‘leave’ campaign.

Neil Hamilton AC: The First Minister seems to be denying that adding a city the size of Cardiff to our national population every year has no impact on wages. I have to tell him that the Bank of England disagrees with that. In a report that was published at the end of last year, the Bank of England said that a 10 per cent increase in immigration leads to a 2 per cent fall in wages for unskilled and semi-skilled people. So, although it may be very well for professional classes and people who want cleaners and gardeners and the like to have unlimited immigration, for those at the bottom of the income scale, this is very bad news indeed.

Carwyn Jones AC: He should look at his own benches when it comes to employing those from eastern Europe, shouldn’t he? I mean, the reality is, on the one hand, his party says, ‘Well, of course, you have to stop people coming in’, and on the other hand, quite happy to employ people when they are here. The reality is that, out of a population of 3 million in Wales, we have 47,000 people who are nationals of another EU state—it is a very small percentage. Many of those people are in skilled jobs: they are working in medicine, they are working in nursing, they are working in dentistry. I can show him, if he likes, in my own constituency, these people and the service that they contribute. The point is this: if you are a doctor and you wish to take your skills around Europe, you are far more likely to go somewhere where there are no barriers than a country where you have to fill in forms to work. It’s simple human nature. The more barriers we put in place to skilled workers, the less likely they are to come here.

Neil Hamilton AC: Well, I think the First Minister has his head in the clouds on that, and huge numbers of ex-Labour voters take the same view. But it’s not just about immigration bearing down on the living standards of ordinary people. There are many other ways in which the EU does this as well—the cost of the common agricultural policy, for example, which probably adds up to £500 a year on the household budgets of ordinary people; £500 a year for green taxes and other climate change levies; and, because of the tariffs that the EU imposes upon the import of the clothing from other parts of the world, the average amount that people spend on clothing, in the average household, is about £150 a year more than it would otherwise be. So, in so many ways, the EU is against the interests of ordinary people, those who are the most vulnerable in our society.

Carwyn Jones AC: I wonder if the leader of the Conservatives heard that, with the common agricultural policy. So much for his guarantees—he’s just heard it from UKIP that they want to get rid of the common agricultural policy. That means, of course, getting rid of subsidies. It means allowing in more New Zealand lamb at a cheaper price—that’s what it means—it means taking away the protections of our farmers, taking away the subsidies they receive. That’s what he means by that. He hasn’t thought through what he said—[Interruption.] He’s embarrassed now, the leader of the Conservatives, at being on the same side—I’m not surprised he’s embarrassed about being on the same side as UKIP on this. What he has just proposed, the leader of UKIP, would mean that farmers would lose money, they would not be able to export at a reasonable price to the European market, New Zealand lamb would come in cheaper because there would be no tariffs because of free trade, and our farmers would be obliterated. Now we know the truth of what the right are saying—that they want to make sure that our farmers lose the protection that Europe provides.

<p>Standards of Care in Health and Social Services </p>

Lynne Neagle AC: 3. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve the standards of care in health and social services across Wales? OAQ(5)0072(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: We demand the highest standards of care for the people of Wales. We have put in place rigorous outcome and standards frameworks, effective performance management arrangements, as well as robust regulation and inspection regimes, which drive service improvement and quality.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, First Minister. Following the recent publication of the fundamentals of care survey conducted in all hospitals across Wales, it was revealed that overall patient satisfaction with the NHS remains extremely high, with 98 per cent of patients documenting that they were made to feel safe and 99 per cent saying that they were treated with dignity and respect. These positive findings are welcome news and a testament to the high-quality work at the heart of the Welsh NHS, which was reiterated by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development report earlier this year. Will the First Minister join me in welcoming these results, which demonstrate that Welsh Labour have not wavered in our efforts to confront the challenges that we face in the NHS? And would you agree with me that it is crucial that the Welsh Government continues to build upon this and remains committed to excellence in care across the Welsh NHS?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, can I thank the Member for that question? I fully agree: we do remain committed to excellent, high-quality care across Wales. As we’ve said before, the OECD report confirms that not one system across the UK is outperforming another. Whilst there was much to be satisfied with in that report, there is still work to do in some areas—that much is clear. We cannot be satisfied 100 per cent. We look to health boards to make sure that they fulfil their potential as organisations that can deliver the services that people expect.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: First Minister, key aims in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 are integrated consistency and co-operation in the delivery of services, yet the reality in Wales, here, is that there are 34 per cent of patients waiting well over six weeks for transfer home from an NHS bed. I know first-hand, from many casework issues arising, and indeed from recent personal experience, that the communication link between the health and social care practitioners is actually very poor and often leads to delays and a lack of provision of services for when people return home, often quite vulnerable. A joined-up approach in terms of occupational therapy, physiotherapy and district nurse care is essential, but very rarely available joined up. Through your three-year evaluation of this Act, how will you address these barriers in order to meet the pledges contained within your Government’s Act, to make it meaningful and relevant to those very people who desperately depend on it?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, we saw the level of delays reduce by 7.6 per cent in April, and a further 2.6 per cent fall was reported in May. The number of patients delayed in acute beds also fell in May: down 7 per cent on the previous month. There was a significant decrease in the number of patients waiting to leave mental health facilities: a 20 per cent decrease. Provisions in the Act—the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act, that is—will ensure far more collaborative working between health and social services, which I’m sure all parties want to see. The regional partnerships, led by health boards, will ensure that fewer and fewer people have to wait longer than they need before they can leave hospital.

<p>Railway Passengers in Islwyn</p>

Rhianon Passmore AC: 4. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s priorities in ensuring enhanced connectivity for railway passengers in Islwyn? OAQ(5)0066(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: We are funding enhancements to the Ebbw Vale line, which, of course, we reopened, that will allow for additional services to be introduced in the future, improving stations and, of course, improving bus connectivity.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Okay. Thank you for that answer. The scheme to reintroduce passenger services back to the Ebbw Vale railway line between Ebbw Vale and Cardiff, including stations at Risca and Pontymister, Crosskeys and Newbridge, has been a resounding success with the public. A great part has been funded by EU structural funding; i.e. it would not have happened if it had been left to the Tory cuts that have occurred in Wales. Will the First Minister provide an update on how Welsh Government is both progressing and facilitating the process within which the communities that I represent, served by the Ebbw Vale railway line, can access the great city of Newport as soon as possible, to ensure critical connectivity for jobs, markets and community regeneration? Would he also comment on the importance of EU funding in such critical infrastructure projects for the future?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, it’s right to say that the Ebbw Vale line would not have been reopened without European funding. The metro cannot go ahead without European money. There are those who say that the money will be made up penny for penny by Whitehall. I believe that that is cloud-cuckoo-land, if I’m quite honest with you.I’ve spent many years in this Chamber fighting Whitehall for funding, ensuring that we have a proper funding floor, ensuring that the Barnett formula is reviewed, and the results have not been happy ones for Wales. I don’t believe for one millisecond that the money we currently receive from Europe will be transferred to us, straight, without a cut being taken by Whitehall. We saw it with council tax benefit: we had it devolved, but only 90 per cent of the budget was given to us. There is form here. We know this money will come to Wales. We’re investing £40 million to improve service frequency and line speeds, and that investment will allow services to Newport, which will be considered as we procure the next Wales and borders franchise and the next phase of the south Wales metro, if the European money is there.

Steffan Lewis AC: A crucial development for transport for people in Islwyn and across the wider region, of course, would be the creation of a full metro system as part of a wider economic and social policy, but what assurances can the First Minister give to me that at the heart of this approach will be the aim of spreading job creation across the south-east region, so that communities there become growth areas in their own right rather than being little more than simply commuter communities for the capital?

Carwyn Jones AC: To me, it works both ways. It is right to say that many thousands of people commute into Cardiff every day. That’s going to continue, but it’s also important that we connect communities to bring investment up from the M4 as well. So, it works both ways, not just physical connectivity, but broadband as well, because we know that broadband, in the twenty-first century, is the equivalent of railway lines in the nineteenth century, and it’s hugely important to make sure that communities are connected to broadband so it doesn’t make a difference, if you’ve got a digital business, for example, where you’re based: you don’t have to be in Cardiff, you can be in any community around Wales. The two things, to me, run together. And yes, it does mean it’s easier for people to access some jobs in Cardiff, true, but also easier to bring investment up from the traditional areas around the M4.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: First Minister, a businessman claimed recently that traffic problems were having a damaging effect on businesses in Newport. One of the reasons he gave for this increased traffic was the fact that the valley line train from Newbridge, where he lives, bypassed Newport. Minister, in 2007 and 2008 promises were made in this Chamber by the then economic Minister that, prior to the Ryder Cup, the train connection between Newport and the valley line and Cardiff would be made, but that never happened—so, basically, continuous promises by your Government, but connectivity of the main line from the valley line to Newport is bypassed by Pye Corner. What action can the Welsh Government take now, before the south Wales metro project is completed, to improve connectivity between Islwyn and Newport?

Carwyn Jones AC: I think I answered that question from the Member—I did say earlier on that the investment that we’re making will allow services to Newport. We considered that as part of the procurement for the next franchise.

Mark Reckless. [Interruption.] Question 5, Nick Ramsay.

<p>The Devolution of Taxes</p>

Nick Ramsay AC: 5. Will the First Minister provide an update on any discussions with the UK Government regarding the devolution of taxes? OAQ(5)0063(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: I’ve made it clear that I will only support the devolution of further tax powers if there is a fair fiscal framework. Discussions are under way and I expect the UK Government to be good to their word and agree a fair and strong funding deal.

Nick Ramsay AC: I’m getting predictable—you’ve anticipated my supplementary, First Minister. You mentioned in answer to the last question the challenges that face us in getting adequate funds from the Treasury. Certainly, following the devolution of taxes, it’s going to be crucial that that fiscal framework is in place so that any subsequent deductions from the block grant are actually not going to short-change Wales. Can you update us on your discussions regarding progress towards a fiscal framework?

Carwyn Jones AC: I’ve made it very clear, when it comes to the Wales Bill, it’s absolutely crucial that the powers should not be devolved without the consent of this Assembly. The reason why I say that is that there should be an agreement on the fiscal framework. If it’s good enough for Scotland, it’s good enough for Wales, and it simply isn’t good enough for Wales to be told—to be imposed on with a fiscal framework, when there is a genuine discussion and agreement between the Scottish Government and the UK Government. We expect the same treatment to be given to Wales.

Mike Hedges AC: Of course it’s a huge gamble to have income tax devolved without either control of macro-economic policy or without protecting income. Welsh income tax is affected by decisions at Westminster. We know it fell by £440 million between 2007-08 and 2009-10, none of which was the responsibility of the Welsh Government. Does the First Minister agree that, if taxes are devolved, we need a mixture of cyclical and counter-cyclical taxes, and that, if income tax is devolved, we need protection from reduction in tax receipts from Welsh income tax caused by Westminster decisions?

Carwyn Jones AC: The Member is right, and we have to make sure—we will make sure—that this is part of the decisions around the fiscal framework, which, to my mind, will need to be agreed with the UK Government. What is essential, to my mind, is that we have an agreement that’ll underpin our funding arrangements for the long term, and that means, of course, putting in place the safeguards that the Member has rightly raised, particularly when it comes to the partial devolution of income tax, so that Wales doesn’t lose out. We want to have a fair system of taxation, but not one that undermines the funding system that we’ve had thus far, flawed though it is, through the Barnett formula. So, it’s hugely important, and, indeed, it is the case that this will form part of the discussions that will be ongoing.

Adam Price AC: Can the First Minister explain the confusion that currently exists regarding air passenger duty? On 9 June Jim O’Neill, on behalf of the Treasury in London, had confirmed that the review on the devolution of the duty to Wales was ongoing, and then, just a few days later, Guto Bebb from the Wales Office stands up in the House of Commons saying that the decision has been taken not to devolve. Which is it? Is the First Minister surprised that the Welsh Conservatives seem to be more willing to listen to an airport in Bristol, which is owned by an Ontario pension fund, than they are to the Parliament of the people of Wales in this place?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I cannot disagree with you. We have been arguing for some time that air passenger duty should be devolved. It has been devolved to Scotland.The review that the Member alludes to is a review into the airports of England, and not Cardiff, to see what the impact would be on the airports of England of devolving air passenger duty to Scotland. So, Wales isn’t even part of the equation. There is no reason whatsoever why this duty should be devolved to Scotland and not to Wales. Guto Bebb said that this is something that he couldn’t agree with because it didn’t benefit north Wales. Well, there is a benefit to north Wales. There is a benefit to airports such as Hawarden and Valley, where there would be an opportunity to develop aeroplanes, to develop services, and to ensure that more planes or services come into those airfields. So, no—it’s not possible for me to explain the point of the view of the UK Government on this, but once again something is being devolved to Scotland and not to Wales, and that, in principle, is unfair.

Mark Reckless AC: It was recently estimated that, on a standalone basis, the Welsh budget deficit would be £14.6 billion, or 25 per cent of GDP—around 100 times greater than estimates of any transfer to or from the EU. The First Minister said he sees Scotland as the model, but does he not share my concern that if, in the long term, we continue going down the tax devolution route, particularly without a referendum, that that continuing transfer may be put at risk?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I didn’t hear him advocate a referendum in Scotland for the transfer of far greater powers in Scotland, but my view is this: the UK’s tax system needs to be re-examined with, for example, a system where there is an element of the taxation system that provides the means to redistribute money across the UK to where it’s needed, while at the same time ensuring local accountability. We have it of a fashion with council tax. We have it of a fashion with community councils. It’s quite normal in most countries for there to be an element of locally raised income tax. We shouldn’t be afraid of that in Wales. But certainly I wouldn’t be an advocate of having a wholly self-contained taxation system in Wales. I don’t think that would be in Wales’s financial interest.

<p>The Employment Rate</p>

Jenny Rathbone AC: 6. Will the First Minister make a statement on the latest employment rate in Wales compared to the rest of the UK? OAQ(5)0067(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: The improving employment rate in Wales continues to outperform all other nations of the UK. We are ahead of Scotland, England and Northern Ireland, with the fastest growing rate of employment and the sharpest declining rate of unemployment over the last 12 months.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Well, our record is obviously excellent, and colleges like the Cardiff and Vale College that provide excellent further education for a range of subjects ensure that people have the skills they need to get work. What work are we doing to ensure that we are developing the skills that employers are going to need in the future so that we’re not having to rely on attracting people from other countries who may be a lot poorer than us?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, one example, of course, is Jobs Growth Wales. It has been hugely successful, with a success rate of over 80 per cent in terms of young people going on to employment, or to further or higher education schemes, funded by European money, and of course it’s a scheme that has helped so many young people get in to work. The genesis of that scheme was that we talked to small and medium-sized businesses that said to us they wanted to take people on, but they couldn’t find the time or the money to do it. Jobs Growth Wales allowed them to do that, and there are now many, many young people in employment because of that scheme, and they have the skills that they need for the future.

Adam Price AC: I think the fact that Welsh unemployment is now lower than the UK average is an important watershed moment. It’s happened a few times over the 30 years, but unfortunately all too rarely. Given that and the employment rate now, the difference is very small, would he accept that when we compare that to the fact that, overall, with our GVA per capita, there is a 30 per cent gap, the underlying problem in the Welsh economy is not jobs, per se, but the quality of jobs? It’s a productivity problem that we have. Do we need to shift our economic strategy to focus on that?

Carwyn Jones AC: There are elements of—. There are issues of productivity for the whole of the UK and Wales is no exception in that regard. We have a legacy from the 1980s and 1990s of an economic policy that got rid of well-paid jobs and instead put in place jobs that were amongst the lowest paid in western Europe at the time. That’s not the economic policy that anybody—he or I—would want to see in the future. We are seeing more and more investment coming in to Wales through good-quality jobs. We’ve seen, for example, companies like Aston Martin, like TVR, like CGI—these are well-paid, skilled jobs. The challenge for us is to make sure that our people have the skills that an employer needs in order for that employer to prosper in Wales. Increasingly, that is happening. So, I would expect to see GVA increase over the course of the next few years, given the fact that the quality of the jobs that we’re attracting now, and the money that they pay, is in the right direction. We’re no longer a low-wage economy, a low-skill economy. That was what Wales was presented as in the 1980s and early 1990s. Never again.

Russell George AC: The Government has previously announced nine priority business sectors for growth in Wales. Five of those sectors—tourism, food and drink, construction, life science and creative industries—have experienced a declining workforce in the last quarter. I wonder if the First Minister could outline the reasons for that.

Carwyn Jones AC: I caution the Member to look at a quarter as being particularly representative. It’s better to look at the longer term trend. So, for example, if we look at unemployment and employment rates in Wales, we see a trend that’s been in place for more than a year of unemployment dropping. You can’t take a quarter and say, ‘Well, that’s typical of the economy in terms of the trend.’In terms of what we see in Wales, we see unemployment now, as I say, lower than Scotland, lower than England, lower than Northern Ireland. It’s the same with youth unemployment. I was at the British-Irish Council last week and, again, we saw that youth unemployment in Wales is lower than in Scotland, England or Northern Ireland. It’s almost as low as Jersey, which is historically very, very unusual for us. That is a sign that the active policy that we have pursued to promote Wales around the world and to attract investment and jobs from around the world is working. Whether that will still be the case after Thursday, we’ll have to wait and see.

<p>Membership of the European Union</p>

Mick Antoniw AC: 7. Will the First Minister make a statement on the protection given to Welsh workers as a result of our EU membership? OAQ(5)0070(FM)

Carwyn Jones AC: Since the mid-1970s, the EU has played an important role in protecting working people. Every worker is protected by a range of rights relating to health and safety at work, equal opportunities for men and women, protection against discrimination and, of course, the harmonisation of working conditions across Europe, so that one country doesn’t have an advantage over another simply because its health and safety practices are inferior.

Mick Antoniw AC: First Minister, in 1975, we joined the EU. In 1977, the EU issued a directive to protect workers transferring from one undertaking to another, which, in 1981, became the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981, which have given protection to hundreds of thousands of Welsh workers over those several decades. In fact, when it turned out a Tory Government didn’t properly implement that directive, Unison, the public sector union, was able to go to the European Court of Justice and actually get an order to give that proper protection to those hundreds of thousands of workers. When it comes to protecting workers’ rights, who would you trust most: the European Union, Michael Gove, Nigel Farage or Boris Johnson? [Laughter.]

Carwyn Jones AC: Not the last three, if I can say that. These people are of a tradition that demands that there should be greater flexibility, as they see it, in the labour market, which means that it’s easier to sack people, casualisation, zero-hours contracts. So, no, I don’t share any kind of faith that they will be there to protect workers’ rights. We know, particularly from the economists who support the ‘leave’ campaign, that they see the future of the UK as one where there are almost no rights for working people, where issues such as health and safety are not regarded with the same concern as they are now, and where environmental regulations are mainly discarded. So, we go back to the days in the 1980s when Britain, environmentally, was heavily degraded. That’s not the future that we want. We want to make sure that we have an environment—a working environment and a physical environment—that people want to enjoy and respect.

Michelle Brown AC: First Minister, who do you believe contributed more to the protection of workers in the UK? Was it the trade union and Labour movements, or was it the EU? And is your Government’s commitment to remaining in the EU an admission that Labour is unlikely ever to form a Government in the UK again?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I’m a head of Government here, so no, I fully accept that we can form a Government here in Wales and, indeed, in the UK. But, the question is not an either/or, is it, because the trade unions have been working with their colleagues across the rest of Europe to ensure that there are common standards of working rights across all European countries. And that’s the way it absolutely should be, because that means there’s protection for workers across the EU, it means that one country doesn’t have an advantage over another because it has lower standards of health and safety, and that must be, surely, in everybody’s interests. I do not trust the inheritors of Margaret Thatcher to actually protect workers’ rights, if I’m quite honest. At the end of the day, people should ask themselves whose side were these people on in the miners’ strike—the wrong side. Those of us who saw the destruction of a Conservative Government of our communities in Wales, that’s what brought many of us into politics: to make sure that kind of economic vandalism never happened again.

<p>The First Ministers of the UK’s Devolved Nations</p>

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: 8. When will the First Minister meet with the First Ministers of the other UK devolved nations? OAQ(5)0069(FM)[W]

Carwyn Jones AC: I met the First Minister of Scotland and the First Minister and deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland at the British-Irish Council in Glasgow last Friday, which was also attended by the Taoiseach, Ministers from the UK Government and the Crown dependencies.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: I thank the First Minister for that response. Did he have any discussion with them on the referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union, and particularly on the question as to what assurances other First Ministers within the UK, as well as you, have been given on what will happen if funding were to disappear from Wales and the other devolved nations because of a decision to withdraw from the European Union?

Carwyn Jones AC: I believe that there were two who were in favour of withdrawal from the European Union: the representative of the United Kingdom as it stands at present and the First Minister of Northern Ireland, who’s said that publicly. The Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey were extremely concerned about the impact on them because, in the Isle of Man, for example, they have an economic pact with the United Kingdom that means that they are affiliated to the European Union. If the United Kingdom were to leave, what would that mean for the Isle of Man? So, we’ll have to discuss what the impact will be after Thursday, if the decision is to withdraw. But, there are other things that we need to discuss internally, for example, fisheries. There are no fisheries that are managed on a United Kingdom level. We’d all have to have joint discussions and negotiations on who would have access to the waters of Wales, England and Scotland. We would all have to discuss together what kind of individual agreements we would have with the other jurisdictions. So, there are a number of things that we would have to discuss if that is what happens on Thursday, which will take a great deal of time. So, there was huge concern, not just between us and Ireland and Scotland, but with the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey, too.

Darren Millar AC: First Minister, I noticed that one of the items on the agenda for the British-Irish Council meeting was that of the support that’s required by carers across Wales and, in particular, that young and older carers were considered. Can you tell me: was any progress made on cross-governmental agreement, in terms of an approach to providing guaranteed rights to respite for carers? This is something that my party, of course, proposed in our manifesto in advance of the Welsh Assembly elections. When you speak to carers, there’s one thing that they’re all asking for, and that is a break at times to recharge their batteries.

Carwyn Jones AC: I appreciate that, of course, and these are issues that we are examining. He asked particularly about the British-Irish Council; the British-Irish Council doesn’t decide common policy, but it’s a useful place to understand what others are doing. It’s a kind of mini European Commission—it’ll be abolished next week, now, you watch, now I’ve said that. It’s a body where Governments can come together to understand what’s being done in other administrations and learn. We have to see what works in other countries, particularly if they have a similar demographic to ours. So, that’s what the British-Irish Council does, but it was interesting to hear what’s being done in the other countries in terms of improving the rights of carers.

Thank you, First Minister.

3. 2. Business Statement and Announcement

The second item on the agenda is the business statement and announcement, and I call on Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Lywydd. I’ve made two changes to this week’s business: today’s business now also includes oral statements on the public local inquiry on the M4 at Newport, and broadcasting in Wales. And business for the next three weeks is as shown on the business statement and announcement, found among the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: No.

Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the leader of the house for her statement. The Welsh Government’s success in rolling out superfast broadband through Superfast Cymru is to be welcomed as a key investment in critical modern infrastructure. However, despite the very high coverage levels, the advantages of superfast broadband are binary, if you like—you either have it or you don’t. So, will the Minister for Skills and Science bring forward a statement indicating how the Government is helping those who won’t benefit from Superfast Cymru and what the Government is doing to ensure that all properties in Wales will have access to fast, reliable broadband?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I thank the Member for that question, because it provides me with the opportunity to confirm that work’s under way to determine how fast and how best we can get superfast broadband to as many of the final few per cent of homes and businesses as possible. Of course, the eventual solutions will be very much dependent on the location and circumstances of the premises involved. I think all of us in this Chamber know of those circumstances, as we monitor progress. But, until the location of the final few per cent of premises is known, it’s not possible to say what specific solutions will be, but of course the intention is to make sure that we deliver on this.

Simon Thomas AC: Business Minister, thank you for your statement. Of course it has been a sad week for all of us as elected politicians to see one of our number gunned down on the street whilst going about her daily work of helping people. Now, Assembly Members have all been notified of how we can improve and consider our own personal security, and I’m sure many will consult with their local police. But I wondered if the Government was considering also how we deal with the well of hatred and poison that ferments on so much social media. The threat of violence, sexual assault and harm on Twitter and Facebook is becoming a daily occurrence for those in the public eye, and women in particular face a nasty social media misogyny. Surely these threats should be treated exactly the same as if they were made face to face. So, when the Government next meets—as I know it does regularly—with the four police and crime commissioners and the four police chief constables, will this issue please be discussed? And can we, therefore, have a statement as soon as practicable from the Government outlining how the police forces in Wales will work together to root out hatred from our midst?On a related matter, I see that we have three upcoming statements from the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language, who seems to want to keep himself busy, but we’ve yet to have one from the education Secretary. When, therefore, can we expect an update from her on progress on the new curriculum development in the pioneer schools, and, particularly, in this context, information as to how the new religion, ethics and philosophy element is being developed? This is where we tackle such hatred and prejudice—right in the classroom itself.Finally, on a happier note, I’m sure we were all shouting ‘Olé’ as Wales weaved their magical way through the European championships last night. Can the Minister confirm any intention by the Government to use the Senedd to give an appropriate ‘thank you’ to Chris Coleman and his team after doing our nation proud, with much more to come, I’m sure? I also want to put on record our thanks for the admirable behaviour of the fans in entertaining the public in France. The Senedd over the last two weeks has been a place of sadness, remembrance, and solidarity; we know it can also be a place and a forum for national celebration and joy. I hope that opportunity does come our way.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Simon Thomas. I think we also, I’m sure, would want to thank the speedy response from the police, who I’m sure have contacted all of us, but also from the Llywydd and her officials in terms of the opportunities with the police to have sessions for all Assembly Members and to make sure that we are safe and can continue to represent our constituents in the way that we feel is most appropriate. Indeed, many of us have had surgeries over the weekend, and experienced not only support and surveillance from the police, but also very strong backing from our constituents that we are ready and accessible and available to meet, but having to learn those tragic lessons in terms of what happened so dramatically and drastically and brutally last Thursday to Jo Cox.So, I think, your points about the well of hatred and poison, we actually responded to those last week, didn’t we, in terms of our minute’s silence and response to the Orlando shootings as well. I did respond on that occasion as well as to how our policies in terms of tackling hate crime need of course to be monitored, reflected and strengthened in many ways.You point the focus on social media, and I think some of us across this Chamber have already experienced some of that backlash over the last week, and I think we need to look at this very carefully as an Assembly, and also in Government. I know that’s where the Minister for communities and children will be taking this forward in terms of meeting police and crime commissioners. And he’s making a statement on progress today on a very important piece of legislation on how we’re tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. This is a whole dimension that we need to focus on, particularly in the ways in which it could negatively affect women.Your points about making sure that we’re all accountable and accessible as Ministers to this Assembly are very important. Of course, you will have seen the written statement on curriculum reform from the Cabinet Secretary for Education, and of course she was very happy to deliver that written statement as quickly and promptly as possible in her new role. I think it’s very important that we see, and I know the Llywydd will be looking for, opportunities to celebrate the great wins so far, and the final victory, which we all look forward to, for Wales, as we wish our team well for Saturday in Paris. I think also, just to say, in terms of football, all Cadw venues are open for free this Sunday; it’s a celebration Sunday as a result of our success so far. Of course, as well as sadness and vigils, we’ve been able to celebrate our sportsmen and women on many occasions here in the Senedd, and I’m sure we will continue to do so with a very specific football focus.

Joyce Watson AC: Minister, you will be aware that there’s a recent BBC report that found that, last year, 3,000 unaccompanied asylum-seeking children arrived in the UK, and they were often fleeing war and persecution. The report found that at least 891 of those unaccompanied asylum-seeking children have disappeared after arriving in the UK over the last three years—421 of those are still missing, and many of those missing are feared to have been trafficked by criminals to work in brothels, to assist in cannabis factories, and to work in private homes. Refugee campaigners say trafficked children, or those at risk, are often being failed after reaching the UK, with local authorities not equipped to adequately protect and safeguard them. The appointment here in Wales of the anti-slavery co-ordinator was a key appointment and did demonstrate our commitment to deliver for these children. What I’m now looking for is an assurance that Welsh local authorities and other agencies who clearly have responsibility for unaccompanied asylum-seeking children here in Wales are taking necessary steps to meet those obligations and to protect these extremely vulnerable children from falling into the hands of criminals and gangs.

Jane Hutt AC: Joyce Watson has raised a very important question, and a question that of course does affect us in Wales. I know that local authorities are very mindful, and, of course, there is co-ordination and support from the anti-slavery co-ordinator, and, indeed, from the Welsh Government as well, in terms of ministerial responsibility. But it is something where we know that, in Wales, the support and welcome to those unaccompanied children, and the ways in which we’re combatting trafficking, is important and is being responded to.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Could I identify with the sentiments raised by the regional Member for Mid and West Wales? It is almost inconceivable, when you think of these numbers, that in excess of 400 of the children identified in this report just have gone missing and cannot be found. It really is incumbent on all the authorities to look at the protocols they have in place and to make sure that there is that safety net and there is that accountability so that when young children, and, indeed, anyone, are placed into care they’re just not lost in the system. Some of the horrendous stories that this report covers—and that was identified by the Member—clearly do require answers, not just from this Government, but from Governments anywhere in the United Kingdom who have an obligation and responsibility. I would implore the Minister to ask the Minister responsible to bring a statement forward to give assurances that we can have the safeguards in place here in Wales, and that he or she has confidence that those safeguards are as robust as they need to be.I would also like to ask for a statement—there’s a story today, obviously, around the travel of the First Minister out to the European championships. I agree entirely—I agree entirely—that it is right that Government Ministers travel to events to represent the Government and also the country, whether they’re sporting or international events of any significance. But I do think that there is a question as to how those services are procured, the value for money for those services, and the protocol that the Welsh Government uses to actually purchase those travel services. And I’d be grateful if a statement could be made available from the Welsh Government to outline whether there is a protocol in place around purchasing services for travel for any function that Government Ministers undertake, the value for money exercise that is undertaken, and, above all, that, where possible, those services are accessed through operators here in Wales, or airports or ports are used here in Wales. As I understand it, in this instance, the aeroplane was from Wales, from an operator in Haverfordwest, but that’s not the question I’m asking: I’m asking how can we be sure that there is best value for money and there is a protocol in place, because we’re not talking insignificant sums of money—in this instance, I think we’re talking nearly £10,000.

Jane Hutt AC: I think your first response to Joyce Watson’s very important question to me on this business statement is very welcome, a very humane response. And, of course, we will look to ways in which we can, as a Government, consider a response to that BBC report and look at ways in which we can monitor the support that we can give to those unaccompanied children in Wales. So, so very disappointing to have your second question, I would say, on this business statement—I mean, the people of Wales want the First Minister to be there, don’t they? They want him to be there. They wanted him, and would expect him, to attend the match. And, of course, in order to enable him to do that, and to travel to Glasgow later that day—we have heard today about the importance of the British-Irish Council in answers to questions to the First Minister. You know, you have to trust your Government—and the people of Wales certainly do—that we are using the appropriate services to enable our First Minister and Wales to be represented, whether it’s in Lille on Thursday and Glasgow later on that day at a British-Irish Council.

David Rees AC: Business Minister, can I first of all agree with Simon Thomas and support his call for looking at social media misuse? It seems to me that some people have the mistaken belief that the anonymity that they can get from social media, or the fact that they sit in the house by themselves, gives them permission to actually harass, threaten and terrorise individuals on the backs of social media, and we need to address that matter very clearly as a Government.My main point is the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure this afternoon is giving a statement on the M4 around Newport. We have problems on the M4 further west and we have had a situation where his predecessor did a trial part-time closure on junction 41, and then listened to the strong voices in Port Talbot and cancelled that part-time closure. But we haven’t had a definitive situation on that and there’s still uncertainty. Port Talbot is a town where uncertainty is unwanted. We have already uncertainty over the future of the steelworks; we need clarity on that section of the M4 in Port Talbot. Can we have a statement on the position of the M4 in Port Talbot, and particularly that junction?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, David Rees, for strengthening the comments on social media and the abuse and harassment, and, indeed, the ways in which that can so much undermine and threaten so many people, including, particularly, women, as was said earlier on by Simon Thomas.Your second point on junction 41, which we have visited regularly in this Chamber as those changes and those developments—and the options, of course, have been considered, and I know the Cabinet Secretary will want to update Members on the progress and the decisions that have been made.

Bethan Sayed AC: Can I ask for a statement or a debate in Government time on post-education provision for people aged 19 to 25 specifically with autism? I don’t particularly want to be going into constituents’ casework here but I feel I have to briefly because it’s come to the position where the grandmother was at my office on Friday, crying her eyes out because she’s trying to keep her grandson at Maes-y-Coed special school for another year, one year, until an agreement comes with Abertawe Bro Morgannwg university health board and the education department as to the long-term future of her grandson.Her grandson is very, very, very ill—severely—with autism, and the fact is that the council are not at this moment putting through exceptional circumstances to allow for her grandchild to stay in that school: a place where her grandchild is safe. So, I would like a statement on that post-education provision, 19-25 provision, but also to understand what guidance you give as a Government on those exceptional circumstances. Quite frankly, we’ve had a very, very difficult week, with the death of an MP, who did actually quite a lot on autism, so I read, and I don’t want to have people coming into my office crying their eyes out because their grandson is going to be thrown out onto the streets with no provision whatsoever. So, although I’m sure you’ll say that I’ll have a statement from the Minister in due course, this is quite urgent. So, I would like to have an urgent statement on this, if you would, business Secretary, or business Minister.Also I’d like to echo David Rees’s concerns on junction 41. I think there was a question last week and we didn’t get to that particular question, but we do need to know, in terms of the mitigating measures—. At the moment, the council are saying they won’t remove those mitigating measures around Port Talbot until there’s a final decision on junction 41. So, I would urge the new Secretary for the economy to write to or meet with Assembly Members in that area so that we can come to a final decision.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Bethan Jenkins. You’ve raised an important case in your constituency, and I’m sure that you are also taking that forward, raising it with the local authority. It is, of course, post-19, the next stage, the transition that is so important in terms of the range of services that we need to provide to young people with autism. So, this is very relevant to the discussions that are taking place and the consultations, indeed, as well. And it will be addressed.Thank you also for adding your voice to raising questions about junction 41. The Cabinet Secretary is very happy to come out and meet Members to discuss the options.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: The commitment of this and the previous Labour Government in Wales to the south Wales metro is commendable, and it shows a real boldness of vision for economic development and for real connectivity. But, can I ask the business manager for a statement or a debate on the importance of the south Wales metro proposals to the whole of south Wales, including the more western, mid-Glamorgan valleys, like the Garw and the Llynfi and the Ogmore, but also the wider Bridgend and Ogmore area? This would allow us to explore how the exciting proposals can reach deep into these communities to realise the economic and the travel-to-work potential of these communities as well as the central and eastern valleys, and to ensure that, over time and over successive phases of this proposal, we can ensure that fast buses and light rail, universal affordable ticketing and synchronised timetables reach deep into every capillary of south Wales, not just into the main arteries. And finally, would the business manager agree with me that the roll-out of this and other major transport proposals for Wales could be seriously damaged if we leave the EU?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Huw Irranca-Davies. I know questions were put to the Cabinet Secretary last week on the metro, ranging across south-east Wales and westwards and, of course, also very clearly involved in the city region developments and bids not only from south-east Wales but also Swansea and Swansea bay. I know that the Cabinet Secretary will be updating Members more clearly on this. Your second point was very clearly answered by the First Minister earlier on this afternoon. The metro could not go ahead without European funding that the Commission has said has to be for integrated transport, and that is what is relevant and that is what they want to spend the money on and what we want them to be able to spend the money on by remaining in the European Union.

Darren Millar AC: Can I called for two statements, please, leader of the house—the first from the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport on the deactivation of pacemakers towards the end of life? This has been brought to my attention by the tragic case of Patricia Hastings from Rhos-on-Sea who passed away with vascular dementia earlier this year. Unfortunately, her family members had to see her face the indignity of a pacemaker that prolonged her suffering at the end of her life as a result of it kicking in when the natural process of death was taking place. The Cabinet Secretary for health will be aware that there has been a piece of guidance that has been published by the British Cardiovascular Society in conjunction with the National Council for Palliative Care. This was published in March 2015, yet it has not yet been fully considered by the Welsh Government for implementation here in Wales. This is 12 months on. This could have given Patricia Hastings some dignity at the end of her life and I’m sure that there are many other people who face similar situations to hers and the very tragic experience of her family. So, if I could ask for a statement on that, I would appreciate it.Secondly, can I also call for a statement from the Minister for Communities and Children on the anniversary of the battle of the Somme, which of course takes place on 1 July this year? Tens of thousands of Welsh troops lost their lives in the awful horrors of the warfare that was experienced in that particular battle. Over 1 million people died in total, and I think we do need to know what the Welsh Government is doing—whether there are any activities that are being sponsored—and how we as AMs in our constituencies can help to promote those activities as a fitting tribute to the legacy of these heroes who passed away in those horrific events. Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Darren Millar. You do raise a very sensitive ethical as well as clinical example of the case, which I’m sure you will have raised not only with the health board but with the Cabinet Secretary as well, but it is something that, of course, the Welsh Government will want to respond to in terms of the most updated guidance. On your second question, of course, there are a number of events taking place. There is a service at Llandaff cathedral, there are events taking place here in Wales to honour and remember—fitting tributes to those who lost their lives in the battle of the Somme.

Julie Morgan AC: I have two points I wanted to raise. Last week, I was pleased to host an event here in the Senedd about the work of the Welsh bone marrow registry and to mark the thousandth collection of a matched donor from the Welsh registry, which is based in the Velindre trust in my constituency. This is an absolutely tremendous achievement, and the matches are all over the world, and I wondered if there was any way that the Cabinet Secretary could make a statement highlighting the achievements of these donors, which really are not widely known. That was the first point I wanted to make.Then, on the second point, we’ve had good wishes to the Welsh team here this afternoon, and I’d like to add my congratulations and to wish all members of the team the best. But can I draw particular attention to the achievements of the highest scorer in the championship so far? He was born and bred in Cardiff North, went to Whitchurch High School and his family still live in Whitchurch. Of course, it’s Gareth Bale. So, I would like to also ask what the Assembly can do to acknowledge the achievement of everybody in the team.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Julie Morgan, the Member for Cardiff North. On you first point, it was very important that you did have the opportunity to highlight the work of the Welsh bone marrow registry. These events here in the Senedd do raise awareness and it was the thousandth collection, as you say, of a matched donor. I want to congratulate the Welsh Blood Service alongside Julie. But also it is about congratulating the volunteers—people who come forward volunteering bone marrow donation. It is about how we can recruit more. I think the Cabinet Secretary knows that this is something where we need to recruit on a more local level as well as at a national level. We need to reach out to communities, and I’m sure that that was the message that came through at your event. So, Assembly Members can also play their part in helping to get that message over far and wide.We would hope and expect that Julie Morgan from Cardiff North would seize the opportunity to praise her constituent, Gareth Bale, and to acknowledge his huge achievements and, of course, the whole team. He’s the highest scorer and certainly the star of the match and the tournament. To see him again is such a thrill for you and for us all, as well as his family. He’s a former school student at Whitchurch High School, and what a role model. So, I’m sure we’ll be celebrating and congratulating him in person in due course.

I thank the Minister.

4. 3. Motion to Agree to the First Minister's Recommendation to Her Majesty to Appoint a Counsel General

The next item on our agenda is the motion to agree to the First Minister’s recommendation to Her Majesty to appoint a Counsel General and I call on the First Minister to move the motion. I call on the First Minister to move the motion.

Motion NDM6025 Carwyn JonesTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 9.1, agrees to the First Minister's recommendation to Her Majesty to appoint Mick Antoniw AM as Counsel General.

Motion moved.

Carwyn Jones AC: Thank you, Llywydd. May I therefore formally move the motion?

Gareth Bennett AC: I offer no comment on the Labour Member’s ability to do the job of Counsel General. I’m sure that, in many ways, he’s a highly qualified candidate. My only point is this: the Member has already during the fifth Assembly twice raised the issue of his great desire for a public inquiry to be held regarding events at Orgreave during the miners’ strike of 32 years ago. [Interruption.] Fair enough. If the Member becomes Counsel General, will he continue to push for this inquiry, and, if he does so, will this lead to any potential conflict of interest?

I have no other speakers. Does the First Minister want to reply to the debate?

Carwyn Jones AC: The answer is ‘no’, because, of course, as Counsel General, the Member would not be involved in any legal process regarding Orgreave. That’s a matter for the UK Government and not the Welsh Government.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? If there is no objection, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. [Applause.]

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. 4. Statement: The Public Local Inquiry on the M4 at Newport

The next item on the agenda is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary on Economy and Infrastructure—the public local inquiry into the M4 at Newport. I call on Ken Skates to make the statement.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Today I am updating Members on the M4 corridor around Newport project. A solution to the long-standing problems on the M4 around Newport has been set out. It includes a new section of motorway to the south, often referred to as ‘the black route’, as well as complementary measures including reclassification of the existing M4 around Newport. This would complement the metro to deliver an efficient integrated transport system in south Wales. Both the M4 relief road and the metro are hugely important to our vision of a fully integrated transport system. We have held exhibitions to help local people understand the land plans and matters such as changes to side roads, as well as setting out the wider economic assessments and environmental mitigation proposals. We published the draft statutory Orders, environmental information and associated reporting on the project in March, giving everyone the opportunity to register their objection, comment or support for the project. All the responses have been carefully reviewed. There are significant issues that must be given careful consideration before I reach a final decision on whether to proceed with construction.I am mindful of the importance that this process is fully transparent and carried out with the involvement of the diverse range of stakeholders. I have therefore decided that a public local inquiry should be held. An independent inspector will review the need for the scheme and consider all environmental, social and economic factors. They will hear evidence and examine the technical experts as well as hearing from supporters and objectors. The published business case will be considered in light of the current and future levels of traffic, to ensure that the investment would represent value for money. The historic consideration of options will be examined, as will all alternative routes proposed by objectors, including the much referred to ‘blue route’. This will robustly test the merits of suggested alternatives and give an independent view on whether the proposed scheme offers the most sustainable, long-term solution. This will all be carried out in a public forum, allowing open and transparent scrutiny, before the inspector provides vital feedback to inform a final decision on whether to proceed to construction.The inquiry is set to commence this autumn at the Lysaght Institute in Newport, with a pre-inquiry meeting taking place on 18 July. The inquiry itself is expected to take around five months, following which the inspector will produce a report and recommendations to me. In the event that the Welsh Ministers decide to proceed with the scheme, following detailed consideration of the report and recommendations of the inspector, the new section of M4 could be opened by autumn 2021.

Opposition spokesperson, Dai Lloyd.

Dai Lloyd AC: May I thank the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure for his statement, and, indeed, welcome the statement in its entirety? Now is not the time to be speaking at length and arguing about which route is best, because the Minister has outlined a way forward in terms of this complex issue, which has been ongoing now for many years. The truth is that we do need a solution. I don’t think that doing nothing is an option for people in that local area or the businesses of south Wales, either. Therefore, I welcome the intention to look at a broad range of options in an entirely independent inquiry. And I would throw into the mix, too, the concept of abolishing the Severn bridge tolls, as we are going to look at all options possible. I would add that as an option that also causes congestion and problems locally. As I’ve said already, I don’t think the status quo is an option and I welcome the way forward set out here, particularly in having heard of the experiences of many people—those in favour and against the various routes. The Minister will be aware, of course, of the doubts that many people have about the environmental impacts of the various options before us. Now, of course, his Government is in favour of one particular route, the black route. We, on these benches, are in favour of another, the blue route. And, in having this entirely independent inquiry that will look at all of the options, as you’ve already said, what assurance can you give us that the same kind of detail, thoroughness and transparency is given when you’re considering the blue route along with the black route? Are you going to treat all of the options equally, giving them the same weighting, to avoid any possible criticism that you may be favouring and continuing to favour and bringing influence to bear on an independent inquiry to come out in favour of the black route? I am seeking an assurance that, when you state that the whole range of options on the table are going to be looked at in detail, that that is going to be the case in reality. Thank you very much.

Ken Skates AC: I’d like to begin by thanking the Member for his contribution and say that I also share his view that doing nothing is not an option. However, the inspector will look at the option of doing nothing and, indeed, the impact of that, moving forward.In terms of the Severn bridge tolls, well, part of the inquiry as well will be to scrutinise the traffic-modelling work that is taking place, including looking at what the likely impact of reducing or, indeed, abolishing the Severn tolls would have on congestion and on the use of the M4 motorway.If we just touch on the history, because I think it’s only fair in reference to the blue route if we just reflect on the fact that work on the M4 has been debated and discussed now for 25 years. It’s time that we examined thoroughly, in an independent, transparent way, all options. Now, in terms of the blue route, strategic studies have shown that that particular route will provide very little relief to the M4, resulting in continued problems on the motorway, whilst also worsening problems on local roads. Three variants of the blue route were previously considered, estimated to cost between £600 million and £800 million, dependent on the scope—far higher than the proposer’s estimate and offering extremely low value for money, given the limited benefits. However, I am mindful of the continued interest in this alternative, and so, to address this, a fresh analysis of the blue route is being carried out and will be published prior to the inquiry. This will look again at scope, cost and traffic modelling and allow people to present their views to the inquiry inspector.

John Griffiths AC: In terms of the possible routes, I think it’s clear, from many people’s views, and certainly mine, that the blue route is, I would argue, a non-starter for many reasons; some of practicality, others in terms of the population centres that it would travel through. You’ve referred to some of the issues already. As far as the black route is concerned, of course, there are major environmental issues, as well as issues around the predict-and-provide model of building roads. So, with that sort of background, Secretary, could you assure me that this inquiry will be able to look at the metro system in terms of its likely effect on traffic on the M4 and its ability to achieve modal shift? Obviously, if we had park-and-ride facilities that were well placed and effective—I think many people are talking of something like a 20 per cent reduction in volumes of traffic on the M4 coming from modal shift from the metro system. There are other ways of achieving modal shift as well, of course, and ways of better traffic management. So, I wonder whether you could assure me that, in looking at the likely future volumes and levels of traffic, which you referred to in your statement, the inspector will be able to look at the metro and other ways of achieving modal shift in relation to those likely volumes and levels of traffic.Finally, I wonder whether you could say a little bit about the £500 million early borrowing facility. I realise that the First Minister obviously has a key role in these matters as well, Secretary, but I think it’s vital that if you do come to an informed view as to the best way forward in terms of the traffic problems on the M4, following this inquiry and further consideration, that this early borrowing facility should be available for whatever the Welsh Government considers the best way forward. That isn’t currently the position, and I would argue that, in line with devolution and the Respect agenda, it should be available for whatever the Welsh Government considers as the best solution. Would you support that?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member and also say that I recognise his powerful advocacy of active travel over many years? Now, in terms of modal shift, it’s a crucial element of the inquiry being able to drill into all of the data and the predicted flow of traffic. The M4 project is being developed, as I’ve already said, together with our plans for the metro and electrification. Together they can deliver a long-term sustainable and integrated transport system. They will also benefit from planned park-and-ride facilities as well as park-and-cycle schemes. For example, new M4 junctions are being planned to co-ordinate with existing and planned public transport measures, such as train stations and park-and-ride facilities. I should focus in on some of the data that have already been published, which really draw quite a stark contrast between doing nothing and constructing a relief road. The 2013 M4 project ‘Public Transport Overview’ report identified that, even if there was to be a 100 per cent increase in public transport usage across the Newport area, this would lead to less than a 5 per cent decrease in traffic flows on the M4 around Newport. That said, active travel is going to be crucially important to managing traffic and to managing congestion in the future in our towns and in our cities right across Wales. So, I’m very keen to work with Sustrans in order to maximise the potential of the M4 to create park-and-cycle opportunities for commuters in order to make sure that Wales becomes a more healthy and active nation.In terms of some of the environmental issues that the Member has touched on, with the preferred black route that the Government has proposed, more than half of that route is on brownfield land. Less than 2 per cent of the area of the Gwent levels SSSI is actually needed, and impacts would be mitigated. Presiding Officer, I am able to say today that we’ve identified £45 million within the project, which will be spent on environmental measures, not just to mitigate the impact of the proposed black route but, indeed, to enhance the environment.

Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Russell George.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement? It is, of course, my view and the view of the Welsh Conservatives that diggers should be in the ground without delay, and of course I entirely agree with the view of others that doing nothing is not an option. Now, millions of pounds have been spent already on the public consultation and the exhibitions. You mentioned in your statement that all the responses have been carefully reviewed, but it doesn’t state in your statement what your view is of those responses. There’s no mention of that. I wonder if you could perhaps outline how those responses have influenced your views before you made the statement today.The environmental concerns, of course, on the black route in particular, have got to raise concerns across the Chamber. I won’t rehearse those today, but only a few weeks ago, 10 charities publicly voiced their concerns to the Welsh Government with regard to their preferred route, claiming that the project would represent ecological destruction on an unprecedented scale, and of course Natural Resources Wales have also objected in similar ways. Now, given those concerns, and considering the recent public input regarding the draft orders and environmental statements, I wonder what the Government is doing to alleviate those concerns ahead of the public inquiry.Now, you said in your statement that you’ll be giving careful consideration and reaching a final decision on whether you will proceed with construction. Can I just ask for some clarity on that? Will the Government be going into the public inquiry with its officials and its legal team on the basis of promoting the black route as the best and the preferred route, or will it be approaching the public inquiry in a neutral position, as has perhaps been suggested? In regards to the public inquiry itself, you have said that it will take around five months. Now, I want that public inquiry to be as comprehensive as possible, but I do wonder whether five months will delay works beginning. So, I wonder if you do have views on whether that is the right time for the public inquiry to take, whether a lesser time would be more appropriate, and whether, indeed, that is your decision or the decision of the inspector.You’ve also detailed where the public inquiry will take place, the venue. Now of course it will cover a large area of south Wales and I wonder whether you would agree to extending it, perhaps, if there was that call—to have the public inquiry meeting in other venues apart from the venue you’ve detailed.Now, I’ll also take this: you also mentioned that the public inquiry will take five months. I wonder if you could tell me how long it will take for the inspector, between the end of the public inquiry to the time he reports to you. How long do you anticipate that time will take? Is it indeed up to you how long that takes, or is there a prescribed time? How long will it take for you from having that report on your desk to making the final decision?You’ve also mentioned that the project would be complemented by the metro, and that’s reassuring to hear. Previously, perhaps they haven’t been working together as they should have done. Clearly, the metro will naturally affect traffic flows on both sides—on the M4 relief road and vice versa. Will the public inquiry therefore take into consideration the relationship between the two projects? Finally, can I say as well that there is concern from north, mid and west Wales on the amount of money that would be spent on the potential black route, so can I ask you to perhaps outline what consideration you expect the public inquiry to take in regard to the value for money for your preferred route?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Russell George for his questions and say that, in terms of, first of all, the consultation that has taken place, I’d be very happy to publish data concerning the responses? In brief, the inquiry will look at the responses to the consultation and the exhibitions that took place between September 2015 and March 2016. In brief, the consultation resulted in a total of 192 supporter submissions, compared to 267 bespoke objections. But if you actually look at the numbers that stem from within Wales, that came from Welsh-based residents, the number of supporters was 143 compared to 118 objections. I will publish these data. The largest objections, in terms of volume, came from organised campaigns including the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and the Woodland Trust. It’s for that reason that I’m keen to meet with those wildlife groups as soon as possible to discuss a range of mitigation projects that wildlife groups would like to see delivered as part of the M4 relief road project.In terms of the timescale that we’re looking at, three-to-five months is what we estimate for the actual period of being able to carry out the inquiry. If the inspector wished to take less than five months, and four months or three months were sufficient, that would be up to the independent inspector. Likewise, I’d have no objection to the inspector taking meetings outside of the centre of Newport, if the inspector so wished. This is very much in the hands of an independent inspector and I wish that inspector to have every opportunity to liaise and to discuss this very important project with the people whom it will affect.In terms of north Wales, in terms of mid Wales and in terms of west Wales, it’s absolutely crucial that the M4 and the metro in south-east Wales, and indeed the metro across south Wales, form part of a national infrastructure plan, and, for that reason, I’m very keen to progress with work. We’ve already begun in Newtown with the bypass around Newtown, but I’m very keen to progress with work right across Wales that benefits people in every community in all parts of the country, whether that be with the development of a business case for the third Menai crossing, the Caernarfon bypass, or significant upgrades to the A55 and the A494 that will amount to more than £200 million, and of course the A40 as well. I want to ensure that the M4 and the metro are not seen in isolation but as part of a fully national and integrated transport plan. Indeed, a plan that will incorporate travel and integrated travel just across the border. That will be of particular significance to the north-east Wales metro proposals.If I can just touch on the actual inquiry itself—the Member asked about the time frame. Draft statutory orders and an environmental statement were published in March of this year. It’s my intention to have the public local inquiry commenced in autumn of this year and I would hope that by summer of next year, pending receipt of the inspector’s report, a decision can be made on whether to make the orders and proceed with construction. The spring of 2018 would mark the commencement of the motorway works and I would hope that, by the autumn of 2021, the work would be completed and the relief road opened.We’ll be proceeding to the public local inquiry with a firm view that the black route is the preferred option. However, the public local inquiry is very much like a court. An independent inspector will hear evidence from us, Welsh Government and our technical experts, as well as from objectors and from supporters. The inspector will examine all alternatives suggested by objectors, including the blue route, as I’ve already said, and the inspector will then make a recommendation to Ministers on whether to proceed to construction.I should point out as well that the Planning Inspectorate appoints the independent inspector; it is not a Welsh Government appointment. And, at the inquiry, the independent inspector would consider an entire range of questions, including the need for the scheme; the land-take proposed to be compulsory purchased; the proposals for changes to side roads; and reclassification of the existing M4. The inspector will consider environmental surveys that have been carried out; potential environmental impacts across an entire variety of issues, including ecological and archaeological and including noise issues and visual impact; as well as the mitigation measures that are being proposed. The inspector will also consider the impact on affected stakeholders, such as Associated British Ports, Tata and, of course, residents. And the inspector will consider the application of Welsh Government policy in decision making—and I know that Members have raised it in the past—such as the application of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. Presiding Officer, the inspector will also scrutinise the traffic demand for the scheme and the traffic modelling work carried out on it. Finally, the inspector will consider alternatives proposed by objectors, regardless of whether they have already been considered and rejected. For example, other routes, the widening of existing roads, greater expenditure on public transport and, of course, doing nothing will all be considered by the inspector.

UKIP spokesperson, David Rowlands.

David J Rowlands AC: Diolch yn fawr, Lywydd. Can I first thank the Minister for his clear and comprehensive statement on this very important project? Representations have been made by Newport ports authority with regard to the black route and its negative impact on its operations. Does he have any possible alterations to the route that might take into account their concerns before the public inquiry actually takes place? And also, given that, perhaps, three quarters of all Irish exports to the EU or UK pass along this route, will he explore the possibility of part of the cost being borne by the Irish Government?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his question and for his kind contribution and comments? The port’s concerns will, of course, be fully considered by the independent inspector, and the independent inspector will, in turn, be able to scrutinise some of the claims and, indeed, all of the concerns that not just the port have been able to present, but other businesses and residents in that part of Wales. In terms of allocating the cost of the project to the Irish Government, I’m not convinced that that would be particularly well received or could be done, but I will raise this matter with officials and check whether that would be possible.

Jenny Rathbone AC: It’s interesting to hear the argument from David Rowlands, which is an argument for staying in the EU, because of course if the M4 is considered a trans-European network, then there may be some way in which we could get some contribution from the Irish. But, anyway, putting that to one side, I welcome very much the rigour, the transparency and the caution with which the Cabinet Secretary is approaching this very, very large decision, and ensuring that we have value for money and we have the ability to pay back any sums that we would need to borrow. I think the world has moved on in the last 25 years since we started talking about the M4, and we now have the metro project on the table, and so I’m particularly glad that the Cabinet Secretary has included the metro and the impact it will have—if, of course, it goes ahead as a result of us remaining in the EU, then I think that’s incredibly important as a way of seeing which is the best way forward that will actually deliver the relief of congestion and any barriers there are to economic development. I just wanted to ask the Cabinet Secretary whether you will be considering the whole-system approach that Bristol is taking to integrated transport management, using an item that we all carry with us most of the time, which is the mobile phone, which emits a signal as to exactly when people are leaving home to travel to work, to travel to school, and how that can be used to map the integrated travel plans of all our citizens in light of the increasing numbers who are going to be living in the Cardiff capital region.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Jenny Rathbone for her keen interest in this subject and say that, first of all, ticketless travel is overtaking integrated tickets at quite a pace and certainly, it is something that we are looking at as part and parcel of the development of the metro? I also recently raised this with the Secretary of State for Wales in terms of the potential to be able to remove some of the congestion at the toll stations on the Severn crossing—being able to utilise free-flow technology.Now, the Member is right to say that I approach this with caution, but this is not a question of whether I or the Welsh Government want a particular route, it’s a question of need, and it’s my view that we need a solution to the congestion that we see on the M4, and it’s my view that the best option is the black route. We need it because, every single day, 100,000 trips are taken on the M4 and, with the black route, 10 minutes for every single one of those trips could be given back to the economy, given back to the people of Wales. In total, that amounts to something in the region of 694 days of people’s lives being saved from sitting on the M4. That has to be good for economic productivity; it’s got to be good for families and for individuals.We know as well that the payback of the costs for the proposed route are somewhere in the region of 3:1. That is very good for the economy of Wales, especially when you consider that many of the companies that will be delivering these projects are Welsh based. We know as well that, as part of the work that would be committed, local workers would fill roles, and 20 per cent of the total labour costs from employment of new-entrant trainees and apprenticeships will provide hope and opportunities for many people, not just in south Wales but from right across Wales.Over the course of construction, there would be 3,000 jobs filled and that equates to around 700 people employed on the scheme every month. So, not only will the relief road be able to deliver, in our view, major economic benefits during the construction phase, in the long term the M4 relief road will be able to give access to employment sites with the capacity to cater for something in the region of 15,000 jobs, and I’d be very keen to work with the Minister for Skills and Science to ensure that not only do we have the right infrastructure in place to serve economic development and a flourishing economy in Wales, but that we also have the right skills available to the people to be able to maximise opportunities for themselves and their families.

Adam Price AC: Can I return to the issue raised by John Griffiths of the impact of the proposed metro for south-east Wales on the future levels of traffic in the region? The construction of a similar transport system for Bordeaux, which Welsh fans will have been able to see at first-hand recently, of course, has actually reduced traffic levels by 40 per cent since 2005. Now, if we were even able to achieve half of that in south-east Wales, it would substantially undermine the rationale that the Government has produced in terms of its preferred black route. So, can we have an independent assessment of the impact of the metro on future traffic levels? And can the Secretary also explain the interrelationship between the inquiry that he has outlined and also the parallel process with Natural Resources Wales, which have to grant a licence, of course, under the habitats directive—because there are European protected species present—for this development to proceed? They’ve said in their own objection that they are not persuaded that the conditions necessary for that licence are currently met. If that doesn’t change, can he confirm that, whatever the inquiry says, he won’t be able to grant permission for the black route to proceed?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his questions, and say first of all that the metro and the M4 are complementary projects? We know that the metro programme is designed to be able to take people between the Valleys and between the major urban centres such as Cardiff, whereas the M4 caters for people who are coming in and out of Wales and travelling in an east-west direction. One is a vertical solution, one is a horizontal solution; together, they form a package that will deliver economic prosperity for the whole of the nation.Now, in terms of alternatives, for example, we know that main line electrification will provide less than 1 per cent reduction across the M4 in peak travel times, and therefore we cannot solely rely on rail and metro solutions to alleviate the current congestion that’s on the M4. But it will be for the independent inspector to scrutinise and carry out the assessment of the M4 proposals, including the predicted travel flow in the years to come. It’s work that we’ve done, but it’s for the independent inspector to ensure that that work is fully scrutinised on an independent basis.And in terms of the environmental work—well, development work—one of the reasons that we’ve had an envelope of spend to develop this programme is because development work has been essential to comply with UK and European environmental legislation, such as the environmental impact assessment regulations and the habitats directive—utterly imperative. And it had to be done to follow the statutory process of the Highways Act 1980 and the Acquisition of Land Act 1981.

Mark Reckless AC: I was particularly struck by two justifications when reading the Welsh Government’s supporting papers for the black route. First, that it is already a trans-European network, and those papers stated that a new road was required to bring it up to the required standards. So, isn’t that, therefore, a cost of EU membership? Second, that reclassification of the existing M4 could allow it to be used to promote the goal of increasing walking and cycling. Is that credible, given the nature of the road? Finally, the First Minister previously stated that continuing high tolls on the Severn bridges could be used to fund the black route. Is that still the position of the Welsh Government?

Ken Skates AC: Well, can I thank the Member for his question, and say, yes, it’s trans-European network? I wouldn’t consider it an unnecessary cost to actually bring this road up to a position where we’ll be able to deliver on the hopes and ambitions of the people of Wales, by having a road that not only can we use in a way that, I’m afraid, the current one can’t be used—you can’t rely on smooth and swift travel along it—but also, in terms of our contact with European partners, we need a major trans-European network, to ensure that our exports can get out of the country, whether it’s to Ireland or to mainland Europe, and I think that’s absolutely vital. So, I’d consider it necessary spending, not on the basis of being able to continue, if you like, giving it the tag of having trans-European network status, but actually to ensure that it delivers economic prosperity for the people of Wales.In terms of his other queries and questions, toll road costs are, of course, a matter for the UK Government, which I’ve been discussing with the Secretary of State. Our talks have concerned the possibility of abolishing or reducing the toll charges. Until we know what the decision is going to be on that, we won’t be in a position to be able to allocate charges for any project, let alone the M4 build.

Lee Waters AC: Minister, I welcome the fact you’re going to take a fresh look at the number of options available for the congestion on the M4. Would you also look at the way that these decisions are calculated? Because, in the light of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and the increased climate emissions target, we need to take into account the full range of costs and benefits from any option. I was concerned to hear you mention the time-saving benefits that form the basis of the cost-benefit ratios that are used to underpin these schemes. For example, the current formula advantages car journeys, and the time saved from those to the economy, against, for example, journeys on public transport. The economists reckon that bus passengers are worth less to our economy than car passengers are, and that that’s the basis on which the figures are used to justify cost savings. So, as part of the spirit of looking afresh at the options, will you also consider the formulae used, which are often used to justify these decisions?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his question, and, again, his keen interest in this very important subject? And, yes, I have an open mind in terms of how we model any sort of economic equation and formula, and I’d be more than willing to look at how we can better understand and scrutinise any models that are presented for infrastructure projects. I’m more than happy to do that.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, as has already been mentioned, of course, we now realise that the Welsh Government is accountable to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act, which was world-leading according to the previous Government, and a piece of legislation, therefore, that should lead to change that would be world-changing. And many of us can’t understand how, under the duties of that Act, the black route has come as far as it has without being thrown to one side. But, that’s a matter of opinion, I suppose.I do have two questions specifically. First of all, as these duties are now imposed on the Welsh Government to look at all decisions in the context of sustainable development, and to balance the various elements in a meaningful way, can you give us some flavour of how this public inquiry will differ now, given these new duties, compared to any similar exercise that may have taken place a few years ago, so that we can understand the practical difference that the well-being of future generations Act is making to the way in which the Welsh Government makes its decisions?Secondly, you mentioned previously that you had asked for some work to be done to look again at the blue route. Can you expand upon that and tell us what exactly you’ve asked for, and can you give us some more details as to the scope of the work that you requested?

Ken Skates AC: I’d like to thank the Member for his questions, and say that we’re very proud of our legislation to protect the well-being and the prospects of future generations. And of course, within the legislation, there is a crucial objective to ensure that we have sustainable, economic growth within our country; that we have more equal communities, and a more equal society. In order to do that, we have to ensure that there are better jobs closer to home, and where those jobs are not literally closer to home, people are able to access them more swiftly. I’m fully aware of the duties under the well-being Act to improve the social, the economic and the environmental, and indeed the cultural well-being of Wales, and I will be mindful of these duties in making the decision on the M4 project, as I will be on decisions concerning the metro and our wider transport networks right across Wales, whether it be on the A55, the A494, the A483, or the A5—all of our trunk road network, and all of our transport infrastructure.A report was published in March, which considered how the M4 project aligns with the goals of the well-being Act, and the M4 project would generate opportunities to improve, as I say, the economic prosperity of the region, as well as to help create a healthier and more cohesive community. The potential impacts of the scheme are balanced with opportunities that align with the well-being goals as far as they are currently developed, and, therefore, the scheme is considered to align with the Welsh Government’s principles of sustainable development. However, having said that, the inquiry will review compliance of the proposals with the well-being of future generations Act. And, in terms of the further detailed work on the blue route, I’d be more than happy to publish what that work entails for all Members to be able to scrutinise it as well.

And finally, Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Can I welcome the Cabinet Secretary’s statement on the next stage of the proposed M4 relief road? It’s a subject that elicits strong views as we’ve all heard today, and I do not doubt for one second the sincerity of those views. I’m pleased that the public inquiry has been announced early in the fifth Assembly, as I want to strongly encourage maximum public engagement with the process. Could the Cabinet Secretary assure me that every reasonable action will be taken to widely publicise the inquiry, and that it’s made easily accessible to all interested parties? We need to capture and consider the wide-ranging views held by the public.As a regular user of the M4, and a resident of Newport, I know the reality for my community and I fully understand the importance of this to Wales. The stretch of road between junction 24 and junction 29 is the most heavily trafficked section in Wales. Many who enter via the Severn bridge may well miss the sign ‘Croeso’ and be welcomed instead by ones that say ‘Queues ahead’. Our current motorway around the Brynglas tunnels is not fit for purpose, and I’m sure if we asked many people to do a word association with Brynglas tunnels, most would say ‘jam’, ‘bottleneck’ and ‘traffic chaos’. That’s certainly not what I want Newport to be known for, and that’s definitely not what I want the main artery into Wales to be known for. The reality of this situation means that an M4 relief road is essential, and I believe the nettle should have been grasped many years ago. I’m pleased, in the Cabinet Secretary’s statement, that alternatives will be looked at, but also that the option of doing nothing will also be looked at.So, I’d just like to finally say that the problem will not go away if we bury our heads. Inaction is not an option. Newport cannot sustain a future of gridlock traffic hell and pollution, and Wales cannot be stuck with a blockage of our main economic artery.

Ken Skates AC: I’d like to thank the Member and say I wholeheartedly agree with her. In terms of ensuring that people have an opportunity to contribute to the inquiry, I think a lot of people are probably somewhat tired of hearing politicians in any environment debate the merits of any given project, and would like to be able to contribute to that discussion themselves, knowing that there is an independent inspector overseeing that process. So, I’m very keen, like the Member, to ensure that as many people as possible take part in this inquiry, and, for what it’s worth, I’ll ensure that Welsh Government promotes it as much as possible and encourages people and organisations and groups, and all stakeholders to contribute, whether they are opposed to it, whether they are neutral, or whether they are in support of it.In terms of the impact that the M4 around Newport has on the country, the Member is right to say that this is a nettle that has been avoided for some time. The problem has been there not just for the past few years, but for the past few decades and it’s time that we get to grips with it, we grasp the nettle and we solve the problem. The M4 is a key artery in and out of the country for more than 70 per cent of the population of Wales and, indeed, it’s crucial for our economic well-being as well. It’s essential that we get to grips with the congestion that we see in and around Newport and ensure that there is a modern motorway network for south Wales that is fit for the future.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

6. 5. Statement: Progress on Implementation of the Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015

We move on to the next item, a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children on progress on implementation of the Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, Carl Sargeant, to make the statement.

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. I feel privileged to again take on this important agenda to end violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. I am proud to have been the Minister responsible for the early development of the Bill, which was successfully taken forward by my colleagues Lesley Griffiths and Leighton Andrews.In June of 2014, Welsh Government was awarded White Ribbon accreditation and there are several White Ribbon ambassadors within the Cabinet, and I am proud to have been one for many years. The purpose of the Act is to improve prevention, protection and support for people affected by gender-based violence, domestic abuse and sexual violence, and we’re making good progress on the implementation. To improve early intervention, it’s vital that the public sector workforce can identify abuse and get help and support to victims.In March, we published the national training framework. It sets out training requirements for all roles within the Welsh public service, including awareness-raising training for all staff, helping professionals to deal with disclosures of abuse, and ensuring that consistent training is available for specialist professionals. A key part of the framework is the e-learning package published last September. The e-learning will raise the awareness of about 0.25 million Welsh public service workers over the next two years.We have also introduced ‘ask and act’. This requires professionals like health visitors and housing officers to identify symptoms of abuse and to ask clients if they are being abused. They are required to offer referrals, interventions and specialist support depending on what they need. This is a five-year project funded by Welsh Government and is being piloted in two parts of Wales. We have received extremely positive feedback on this project.To really help us prevent violence against women in the future, we have to focus on children, to make sure they understand what constitutes a healthy relationship and how to recognise the symptoms of unhealthy relationships. So far we have published a whole education approach to good practice guide, produced by Welsh Women’s Aid, and an awareness-raising guide for school governors published in March 2016. We’ve also held a joint national education conference.Statutory guidance on education will make local authorities designate a member of staff for the purpose of championing violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence matters in schools and other settings. Our aim is to publish this by the end of the year. We have also commissioned Welsh Women’s Aid to develop a package of best practice materials in relation to these matters, for use in education settings across Wales. These will also be published shortly.Public services need to work together to protect people experiencing violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence from suffering any further harm, and protect any family member and children.In 2015-16 we increased the budget for tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence to £5.4 million and this remains unchanged for 2016-17. We have also taken significant steps to reduce the incidence, and to protect victims, of female genital mutilation, forced marriage and honour based violence.For the future, we know that a big part of tackling violence against women will be to tackle perpetrators. We are working with the National Probation Service and the national adviser on guidance on perpetrators. We are also working with victims and survivors to help us shape our ongoing approach.We continue to support the Live Fear Free website, which provides a comprehensive resource for victims, survivors, families and friends and professionals. The website supports the work of the helpline in providing advice and signposting.The Welsh Government has produced several high-profile campaigns to raise awareness and change attitudes in the last year. This includes the award-winning Cross the Line campaign, which deals with emotional abuse. This campaign received both silver and gold awards at the Chartered Institute of Public Relations awards last October. I intend to build on the success in 2016-17.We’ve also made significant progress but there is more to do. We will consult on the national strategy, including measures of performance and progress, which will inform a framework for regional delivery of services. And I look forward to working with the national adviser, Rhian Bowen-Davies, who I met last week, public and third sector organisations, with victims and survivors to continue the excellent work done so far in delivering our activities to tackle violence against women.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sian Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much, and thank you for that update. Of course, you acknowledge here that the central grant has been increased, but much of the funding for this area in terms of assistance to women in refuges does come through local authorities, and local authorities have faced financial cuts year on year. Some of these services are suffering as a result of cuts that vary from 3 per cent to 20 per cent, and there are some examples of cuts of up to 70 per cent in the support for women’s services in some parts of Wales, unfortunately. This leads to a dire situation on occasion, and, during 2015, Women’s Aid had to refuse service to 284 women because there was just no room in the refuges and no funding available to maintain the services. So how, therefore, do you intend to implement the framework in this area, given the lack of resources and funding, and what is the Government’s financial strategy?If I could just turn to two other issues, Plaid Cymru has been emphasising healthy relationships education and the need to maintain and roll that out as a holistic approach to this most complex of problems. How are you now going to be monitoring the implementation of the guidance that’s been published in order to ensure that we do achieve our aims in that particular area? I note that you don’t mention one very important aspect in this area, namely the issue of the banning of smacking children. The decision of the Government in the last Assembly was not to actually do away with the reasonable chastisement defence, which was a great shame, because it would have given equal protection to children in law. There is now some sign that your Government is willing to reconsider this particular issue, thanks to pressure from my own party, so I would like to know what steps have been taken and what is the timetable for achieving this, because it is an issue that is crucially important for our children in the future.

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for her contribution. She should be aware that this is the second time that I’ve been in this portfolio and I have worked with many groups to increase the opportunities we have, working with Government to make sure we tackle these issues. I welcome the opportunity to work with the Member in a more constructive way in the future too. I think it would help though if the Member were to look in more detail at some of the issues that she raises with me today. Of course, I did mention to the Member that, in 2015-16, we increased the budget for tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence to £5.4 million. That remains unchanged for 2016-17. The Member is right to raise the issue of local authority intervention, but there are so many other players too, and the issue around the Supporting People grant around refuges particularly—we work with Supporting People, which issues a significant amount of money to third sector organisations and indeed to housing associations too, who are also partners in this. I’ve already spoken to three of the four police and crime commissioners across Wales, who I know are also very keen to join with us in tackling some of the issues that the Member raises.It is also perhaps unfortunate language that the Member uses in terms of the defence of reasonable chastisement. This Government will legislate on the defence of reasonable chastisement in this term of Government, and I will be taking that legislation through. I look forward to the Member’s support as we move forward. There are many complex items in dealing with these issues, and some of the priorities that my team have already started working on, which I will be pursuing with colleagues across Government, are things like adverse childhood experiences, ACEs for short, which have a massive impact on the way people grow up and the effects of that. We’re also seeing some great programmes already running in pilot form across Wales—the IRIS programme, which started its life in Bristol, is now being rolled out across many of the Cardiff GP surgeries, where we are seeing first-time referrals increasing dramatically, day by day, which seems tragic, but actually it’s great news that we’re seeing people have the ability and confidence to be supported in this tragic position they find themselves in. We’ve got IDVA health-led services being rolled out across Wales, and also the issue around a perpetrators’ programme that’s run in Essex and Sussex, and the south Wales police and crime commissioner is looking at the ‘Drive’ programme, which should be, again, something we should think about—how do we make sure these programmes are consistent across the whole of Wales?

Joyce Watson AC: Again, I am pleased to welcome you back to a role, Minister—or Secretary—that I know that you care passionately about. Passion does play a part, of course, on both sides of this debate. I would like to point you in the direction of a passion to do something positive about this, and I’d like, here, to commend the work of Coedcae school in Llanelli, from where the pupils came here and they actually delivered their action plan and their understanding in their White Ribbon campaign two years ago. They put together a play—that is, the pupils put together a play where they had starring roles within that play and they discussed all consequences concerning all aspects of domestic abuse and violence within the home. The then education Minister, Huw Lewis, came along to the school, and I’m inviting you, Minister, and hoping that you will take that opportunity to come along as well, because it is a real example of peer-led group work within a school and is most definitely a model of best practice.On the other hand, I conducted a survey of students two years ago, and I asked a very few basic questions about, ‘Have you ever seen or have you ever witnessed, and how do you feel about different levels of violence?’ I was absolutely astounded and disappointed when 50 per cent of those who replied said they had, and 50 per cent—and it didn’t really matter whether they were male or female—thought that it was quite acceptable for a male to hit his girlfriend or his partner by just giving her a slap. Those were the replies I received. So, when we say that we need to look at and legislate, that is correct, but what we absolutely have to do—and this is where I wholeheartedly support the work with young people and children—is change attitudes. Because there’s a direct need for attitudinal change that came out of my survey, and it absolutely staggered me.Of course, what we’re really talking about when we’re talking about changing hearts and minds—we’re talking about the respect agenda, that people actually respect each other, whatever age they are, whatever gender they are. And that brings me neatly on to, I think, probably an area that doesn’t get an awful lot of airing. That is the area of same-sex relationships. It is a wonderful thing now that people can openly have same-sex relationships without any fear of retribution from the wider society, but I’m not so convinced that those same couples find the same freedom to come forward and express, and whether people are actually trained to help those couples, when they’re experiencing domestic abuse.Finally, I’d like to know, Minister, what you’re going to do about monitoring progress. It is fantastic that we’re world leaders in this field, but we need to monitor the progress to make sure that what we’re trying to lead on actually gets delivered. It’s fantastic that we’ve got champions being placed here, there and everywhere, but what exactly is it that they’re doing? Will we know what it is that they’re doing, and who are they accountable to, and what is it that they are actually accountable for?Also, I heard the account just now about 70 per cent reductions by one authority in their budget given to Women’s Aid. I think that’s disgraceful. That’s a political decision, and they need to take that into account within their own local authority. But the housing Bill actually does allow to free up some of those places. Again, on the same thing about monitoring progress, have you looked at whether any of the housing associations or local authorities are taking forward the provision that they now have within the housing Bill that actually tells them that they can, where it is safe to do, move the perpetrator, not the victim?

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for her contribution. Again, Joyce Watson, thank you for your contribution to this programme as well—internationally recognised in terms of the work that you’ve done. So, working together we can make a big difference in this, as many other people in the field do too.The Member raises some really interesting points. I am aware of the school in Llanelli and the play that they put on, because, while you invited Huw Lewis to attend, I seem to recall having some intervention as well in that process. I congratulate the young people, building on healthy relationships, because that’s what I believe. The communities portfolio has been enhanced by actually having responsibility now specifically for children and young people, because I do believe that if we can make some early interventions on healthy relationships at a young age it prepares people for the long term in life. I’m really pleased to be able to work with my Cabinet Secretary colleagues in terms of how we can jointly work to this single agenda of well-being in our communities, starting with young people.The issue the Member raises regarding housing, particularly, is another area in which I’m very interested. I’ve always been very impressed at the way that the housing sector can support this very issue. I remember, back in the portfolio many years ago when I asked the housing associations to introduce work-based policies and client-based policies for domestic violence, that nearly all of them did. One was a little bit challenging, but, when we talked about money, they decided that it was probably a wise idea to move into that space for the right reasons. We’ve got all housing associations across Wales now with work-based policies around domestic violence, and for their clients too. So, they are able to influence and do some more work. The ‘ask and act’ programme they’re involved in is something that, again, remains unique to Wales in a global setting. So, we are doing some really clever work.The same-sex relationships: I share your concern, and in particular we saw the tragic events that happened in Orlando last week—just saying that we still aren’t, people aren’t, accepting what is perfectly natural to what we see in daily life, and how do we make sure that services align to supporting people who choose to live in same-sex couple relationships? Actually, domestic violence isn’t just about marital relationships: it’s father and son, mother and daughter, and a whole mixture of how these incidents are taken forward. We have to be very clever in the way that we look and how we support people in their disclosure programmes.I’m very keen to make sure that we make progress on this. I think there were some people in the sector—some of my officials, even—who were thinking, ‘Oh no, he’s back’. Well, I am back and let’s hope that we can work together to make sure that we can make real changes—passionately doing something that will be for the good and safety of people across our communities. The way we’ll do that is working with the national strategy, the national adviser and national indicators, and working with the principles we set down in Government last term about the well-being of future generations Act, making sure we can plan for the future, working with our young people, encouraging, educating people about healthy relationships. That’s something I know, working with you and many in this Chamber, that we can achieve.

Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. I think, when you last held this portfolio, I held the shadow portfolio, and I’m still spokesperson for my party on this issue. Can I start by giving credit to people who aren’t here: Jocelyn Davies, who led on this for Plaid Cymru in the last Assembly, and Peter Black, for the Liberal Democrats, who worked with me to strengthen the Bill with the Minister, particularly at the end? Those of you who were here will remember in those last weeks, particularly the last week, how tense matters became, because we as members of the committee that scrutinised it at Stage 1 had said the Minister should amend the Bill to make provision for compulsory whole-school age-appropriate education programmes on healthy relationships, and we still hadn’t achieved that at Stage 3. The Minister came forward with some concessions that enabled the Bill to go through with unanimous support at Stage 4.Today, you referred to the whole-education approach, the good practice guide, the national education conference, and statutory guidance on education to make local authorities designate a member of staff for the purpose of championing violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence matters in schools and other settings. At Stage 3 and 4 the Minister had said the statutory guidance then would provide or include provisions for approaches such as how schools can drive forward a whole-school approach by appointing a staff, pupil and governor champion, and it therefore doesn’t require them. Can you therefore confirm that this will make local authorities introduce that staff champion? But also, could you perhaps respond or develop the omission here in terms of children and governors, who your predecessor had also referred to in this context?You referred to developing a package of best practice for use in education settings across Wales. The Minister at Stage 4, and I quote, said:‘Mark Isherwood asked specifically about how we keep up to date on the curriculum and the implementation of the Donaldson review,’and you propose that healthy relationship education is developed within the curriculum followed by all schools. Your predecessor said‘that is certainly something I will want to be reporting on’.So, I wonder if you could add comments in the context of the Donaldson review recommendations.You say that, for the future, we know a big part of tackling violence against women will be to tackle perpetrators, and that we’re working with the National Probation Service and the national adviser on guidance on perpetrators. Well, again at Stage 4, the previous Minister said:‘I can also give Mark Isherwood an undertaking, given his continued pressure throughout this process on the importance of perpetrator programmes, that, of course, we will be reporting on those as well, where they operate, bearing in mind that the research in this area is still being developed and we need to ensure that we are putting in place programmes that actually work.’In my contributions I’ve referred, for example, to the work of Relate Cymru and their voluntary perpetrator programme, which found that 90 per cent of the partners they questioned, sometimes after the end of the programme, said that there has been a complete stop in violence and intimidation by their partner. I’ve also referred to the knowledge and expertise of an organisation you also hold close to your heart, the domestic abuse safety unit on Deeside. I wonder if you can comment on whether or how you could extend your work with this to organisations like that, so you may access the front-line expertise that they and their partner organisations already have.The Stage 1 committee report in the last Assembly recommended that the legislation should ensure that services are tailored to the specific needs of men and women respectively. I quoted then from the domestic abuse safety unit of Flintshire, who’d given me a booklet, a men’s health forum booklet, which said that it’s important to recognise that men experience domestic violence both as victims and perpetrators, and I referred to the Barnardo’s ‘Hidden in Plain Sight’ report on the sexual exploitation of boys and young men. They said this begins to address the gap created by the focus on female victims with little attention given to males. Well, there was a call for gender-specific approaches for women, yes, absolutely, but also for men.At Stage 4 I said I’d be looking to see how the Minister developed his pledges in this respect. Could you comment on the pledges your predecessor made in this respect, and how you might be looking at this in the future?My final point: at that stage I also identified concern that the name change from ‘ministerial’ to ‘national’ adviser was apparently just that—a name change. The Minister previously acknowledged what he referred to as inconsistencies within the Bill created by the name change and stated his intention to clarify these. Again, could you confirm whether you have or how you will be addressing those inconsistencies? Thank you.

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank Mark Isherwood for his question. I can’t comment on the former Minister’s decisions and his evidence in committee stage. What I can do is certainly update Members, which I’m hoping to do today, in terms of where we’re taking forward the Bill and the concepts behind that and the implementation, which I think is a very important part of that. The Member is right to raise the issue of statutory guidance. The previous Minister may have said that it can drive forward change; my assumption will be that it will drive forward change, and I will be making sure that’s very clear in statutory guidance that will be issued around the training for certain members of staff and governors of boards.I’ve already started early discussions with Kirsty Williams regarding the Donaldson review and recommendations around that, because my own view is that healthy relationships and the teaching of healthy relationships isn’t optional for schools. This should be what we should be doing from a very early age. I met, and I suppose the Member has also met, with many schools in affluent areas—may we say—that don’t believe there is an issue with domestic violence in their community at all. Well, it’s complete nonsense. There is domestic violence prevalent in all our communities. It’s not class based and it can happen to anybody. That’s why, I think, healthy relationships across the whole sector, of all our schools, is not optional. I’m very grateful for the work, already, that Kirsty Williams is helping us develop in terms of training. I will come back to the Chamber with more detail when we have that.Perpetrator programmes—it is early days for this. I’ve got evidence to see how they are effective. But I really am impressed by the work of Alun Michael, working with other police commissioners from England, actually, where there are three police authorities practising the ‘Drive’ campaign, it’s called, working with perpetrators at very high incidence rates. They are already seeing some great turn-around where perpetrators sometimes don’t realise they are actually having an effect on their partners in any way.Mark Isherwood raises a very important point, which is again close to my heart. It is about actually talking to people who have experienced this. Forget the—I think we should use the work of academics and the civil service, who have a great knowledge of this; but the real people that know about this are the people who have been affected by that. People like a good friend of mine, Rachel Court, or Rachel Williams, who was shot in Newport by her late husband, and then she lost, within weeks, her own son too. She can tell you a very dramatic story about how it affected her and her family. Now, she sees herself on a mission as a survivor on how she can help people deal with these issues. I want to listen to people like Rachel so that we can develop Government policy that will have a real meaning to real people.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I welcome the Cabinet Secretary’s statement and his clear commitment to taking forward and building on the pioneering made-in-Wales legislation that was brought forward by his predecessors Lesley Griffiths and Leighton Andrews. The detailed plans laid out in the statement show there’s a real commitment to take forward and turn bold legislation into bold implementation that will make a real difference in our communities and to the lives of many people who are exposed to domestic violence.I want to explore with the Minister how this interacts with other England-and-Wales legislation brought forward in the UK Parliament, not least the recent offence under the Serious Crime Act 2015, England and Wales, of coercive and controlling behaviour. It was very welcome because it acknowledged, in hard black and white, the frequency and the destructiveness of this form of often hidden and often harder-to-identify abuse. As Professor Evan Stark of Rutgers university and long-time campaigner on this issue has said:‘Not only is coercive control the most common context in which women are abused, it is also the most dangerous.’I the past, the law has seemed inadequate when police officers are called to incidents of domestic abuse, not least because, too often, only a physical act causing actual injury or criminal damage would result in an arrest. The offence of coercive behaviour, this new offence, allows enforcement agencies to identify and to act on a pattern of abusive behaviour where victims are subject to controlling, disempowering behaviour and emotional abuse and to do this before it progresses to actual physical violence. But, this will need a new skill set, both for police officers and other agencies to identify this behaviour and to gather the evidence needed for prosecution and conviction. So, would the Cabinet Secretary ensure, in light of the welcome national training framework, the Ask Me pilot, and so much good work that is now happening on a multi-agency basis, that we can promote the successful use of these new powers on coercive and controlling behaviour and add to the work of those like south Wales police commissioner Alun Michael, who I understand the Cabinet Secretary met with very recently, who is working with partners on the ground in seminars, in workshops and elsewhere to develop awareness of these new powers and understanding of how to use these new powers and to put them into action?

Carl Sargeant AC: I thank the Member for his comments. People who know me will really understand that there are certain things that excite me about the opportunity to make a difference; this is the field where I’m really passionate about making a difference, because this is the difference between life and death. For many people who have tragically found the latter, it sort of escapes them from domestic violence, but it’s a tragedy for them and their families and friends.The issue around the national strategy will be an important one. It’s about delivery—are we doing this right and can we deliver on all of the issues that the Member raises: the coercive control, the child sexual exploitation, physical, verbal, coercive control, and financial—all have an influence on people and we’ve got to make sure that, collectively, we can find solutions to that. Governments do many things, and they don’t always get these things right, but there are some people out there who are experts in the field, and what we have to do is open the doors to make sure that we bring these people together, work with national advisers and work with an advisory group. I’m looking at refreshing the advisory group, because when we were developing this groundbreaking piece of legislation, which had worldwide recognition, we listened to people and understood what it really meant for delivery. That’s what I intend to do as we move forward on the implementation of this Act. It is a great start, but there’s so much more work we can do collectively.

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary.

7. 6. Statement: Broadcasting in Wales

We move on to the next item, which is a statement by the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language on broadcasting in Wales and I call on the Minister, Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: This is undoubtedly a crucial period for broadcasting in Wales. In the coming weeks and months there are key decisions to be taken relating to broadcasting and regulatory arrangements. With this in mind, the Welsh Government will establish a new independent media forum for Wales. This was one of the recommendations of the communities committee in its report on the BBC charter review. I will provide further details about the new forum in due course. I will focus primarily today on the urgent issue of the BBC charter review but will also refer briefly to other key broadcasting issues.Lywydd, drwy ein memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth â Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig ac â'r BBC, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi bod, a bydd yn parhau i fod, yn rhan lawn o’r broses o adolygu’r siarter.Mae siarter ddrafft yn debygol o gael ei chyhoeddi yn ystod yr haf, a bydd dadl yn cael ei chynnal yn y Cyfarfod Llawn yn syth ar ôl toriad yr haf.Rwyf yn bwriadu cwrdd â'r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Ddiwylliant, y Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon cyn toriad yr haf i drafod hyn a materion eraill sy’n ymwneud â darlledu.Ar 12 Mai, cyhoeddodd Llywodraeth y DU Bapur Gwyn ar siarter y BBC.Ar yr un diwrnod, ysgrifennodd yr Arglwydd Hall, cyfarwyddwr cyffredinol y BBC, at y Prif Weinidog i roi adroddiad cynnydd ar ddarpariaeth y BBC yn y gwledydd datganoledig, ac mae'r Prif Weinidog wedi ymateb iddo yr wythnos hon.Yn gyffredinol, rydym yn falch bod yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Ddiwylliant, y Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon wedi ystyried nifer o'r materion a godwyd gennym, yn ein hymateb manwl i'r ymgynghoriad ar y Papur Gwyrdd ac mewn trafodaethau rhwng swyddogion a Gweinidogion drwy gydol y broses o adolygu’r siarter.Mae angen rhagor o fanylion am nifer o’r cynigion a amlinellwyd yn y Papur Gwyn, er bod rhai o'r rhain yn cael sylw yn llythyr y cyfarwyddwr cyffredinol i'r Prif Weinidog.Mae'n galonogol, Lywydd, fod y BBC yn bwriadu diogelu gwariant yn y gwledydd datganoledig yn gymharol ag ardaloedd eraill ac mae bellach yn ymrwymo i neilltuo cyllid ychwanegol ar gyfer ei gwasanaethau penodol yn y gwledydd hynny.Fodd bynnag, mae angen eglurder ar frys ynglŷn â beth y mae hyn yn ei olygu o ran cymorth ariannol a pha effaith ymarferol y bydd hyn yn ei chael ar gwmpas y gwasanaethau y mae’r BBC yn eu darparu i Gymru.Nid ydym yn ystyried datblygu Caerdydd fel canolfan bwysig ar gyfer cynyrchiadau rhwydwaith yn gyfiawnhad o fath yn y byd dros leihau buddsoddiad y BBC mewn gwasanaethau eraill.Dylai adnoddau ychwanegol gael eu clustnodi ar gyfer rhaglenni o safon uchel fel dramâu, a fydd yn gwella rhaglenni Saesneg i gynulleidfaoedd yng Nghymru.Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi galw o'r blaen ar y BBC i fuddsoddi arian ychwanegol sylweddol yn y rhaglenni Cymraeg.Rydym yn croesawu’r ffaith bod Tony Hall yn cydnabod bod yn rhaid gwella'r ffordd y caiff Cymru a'r gwledydd datganoledig eraill eu portreadu a bod y BBC yn bwriadu gosod amcanion portreadu i’r comisiynwyr.Mae'n rhaid i bob un o’r darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus gydnabod bod yn rhaid cynrychioli diwylliannau amrywiol ei gwledydd a'i rhanbarthau yn well er mwyn cynrychioli amrywiaeth lawn y DU yn briodol, ac mae hynny'n cynnwys Cymru.Rydym hefyd yn cefnogi'r bwriad i gael golygydd comisiynu drama sy'n gyfrifol am bob un o’r gwledydd hyn.Mae'n hanfodol bod yr unigolyn hwn yn gweithio yng Nghymru, a bod penderfyniadau comisiynu ar gyfer Cymru yn cael eu gwneud yma hefyd.Dylid gwneud mwy i sicrhau bod gweithgarwch cynhyrchu wedi’i ddosbarthu’n decach y tu allan i Lundain ac yng ngwledydd a rhanbarthau'r Deyrnas Unedig.Rydym yn cydnabod bod rhai gwelliannau wedi'u gwneud, ond, serch hynny, mae gormod o benderfyniadau yn dal i gael eu gwneud y tu mewn i'r M25.Yn y bôn, mae angen newid diwylliant yn y BBC.Rydym yn cydnabod y rôl allweddol sydd gan y BBC fel darparwr darllediadau newyddion am Gymru ac i bobl Cymru.Y BBC yw’r darparwr mwyaf o hyd o ran newyddion teledu nad yw ar y rhwydwaith a rhaglenni materion cyfoes yng Nghymru.Rydym yn cydnabod bod y BBC wedi bod yn brif ysgogwr o ran gwella’r sylw a roddir i faterion gwleidyddol datganoledig yng Nghymru.Fodd bynnag, mae Cymru yn parhau i fod heb gynrychiolaeth ddigonol, hyd yn oed pan fo straeon yn berthnasol ledled y DU. Mae enghreifftiau o adroddiadau gwael ac annigonol yn cynnwys yr anghydfod cytundebol diweddar rhwng Llywodraeth y DU a meddygon iau yn Lloegr, ac, yn fy marn i, roedd sylw’r rhwydwaith i etholiad y Cynulliad yn ddiweddar hefyd yn annigonol.Rydym yn cydnabod y ffaith y bydd Cymru'n cael ei chynrychioli ar fwrdd unedol newydd y BBC—rydym wedi pwyso’n galed am hynny.Rydym yn edrych ymlaen at gael rhagor o fanylion am y cynnig i greu is-bwyllgor o’r bwrdd ar gyfer pob un o’r gwledydd.Rydym hefyd yn croesawu'r bwriad i greu trwydded gwasanaeth ar gyfer Cymru, sy'n adlewyrchu ein galwad ninnau am gompact i Gymru yn y siarter newydd.Mae'n rhaid i'r drwydded gwasanaeth ddiffinio'n glir yr hyn sydd ei angen ar Gymru a'r hyn y mae gan y BBC ddyletswydd i’w gyflawni yng nghyfnod nesaf y siarter.Mae'n destun siom nad oes unrhyw fanylion ynghylch sut y bydd Ofcom yn datblygu ac yn darparu’r drwydded gwasanaeth newydd hon. Roeddem yn glir bod angen adolygiad llawn o ddibenion cyhoeddus y BBC ar frys, fel sail ar gyfer cytundeb siarter newydd.Pe byddai’r adolygiad hwnnw wedi'i gynnal, byddem mewn gwell sefyllfa i nodi’r gofynion ar gyfer trwydded gwasanaeth i Gymru sy’n addas at ei diben.Presiding Officer, we also welcome reference in the White Paper to ensuring the independence of S4C. It is vital that S4C has sufficient funding, as well as having editorial and managerial independence. We welcome the UK Government’s intention to carry out a comprehensive review of S4C, something that we have continually pushed for and was originally promised in 2010. However, this should take place in parallel with the BBC charter review rather than after it. It should also be part of a broader, more fundamental review of the public service broadcasting needs of Wales. We expect to be fully involved in the review of S4C, including the development of the terms of reference.Mae sicrhau lluosogrwydd teledu Saesneg yng Nghymru yn hanfodol, o ran newyddion a hefyd o ran rhaglenni cyffredinol ar gyfer gwylwyr yng Nghymru.Felly, mae gan ITV Cymru Wales ran hanfodol i'w chwarae fel dewis arall yn hytrach na’r BBC ar gyfer newyddion a rhaglenni nad ydynt yn rhai newyddion.Nid ydym yn ystyried bod lefel bresennol y ddarpariaeth ar drwydded sianel 3 yn briodol, na hyd yn oed yn ddigonol.Dylid cynyddu’r ddarpariaeth, yn enwedig o ystyried sefyllfa ariannol iach ITV.Os yw Channel 4 yn derbyn adnoddau cyhoeddus, yna dylai fod yn ofynnol iddi o leiaf gynhyrchu cyfran yn ôl poblogaeth o raglenni comisiwn ar y rhwydwaith yn y gwledydd a'r rhanbarthau.Roeddem yn siomedig nad oedd Ofcom yn cytuno â'n barn y dylai cwota Channel 4 ar gyfer cynyrchiadau y tu allan i Lundain gael ei weithredu erbyn 2016 yn hytrach na 2020.Mae record Channel 4 o ran comisiynu cynnwys o Gymru wedi bod yn isel iawn yn hanesyddol; mae ei gwariant yng Nghymru yn dal i fod yn is nag 1 y cant o gyfanswm ei gwariant ar gynnwys ac nid oes gan y darlledwr ddim staff comisiynu sydd wedi eu lleoli yng Nghymru.Rwyf yn falch bod consensws trawsbleidiol ynglŷn â’r rhan fwyaf o’r materion darlledu.Adlewyrchwyd hyn yn adroddiad y pwyllgor ar adolygiad y siarter ychydig fisoedd yn ôl, yn y llythyr a anfonwyd yr wythnos diwethaf gan Aelodau'r Cynulliad at Tony Hall, a hefyd yn adroddiad Pwyllgor Materion Cymreig Tŷ'r Cyffredin, a gyhoeddwyd yr wythnos diwethaf.Lywydd, fel Llywodraeth, byddwn yn parhau i sicrhau bod buddiannau pobl Cymru yn cael eu cydnabod ac yn cael sylw wrth i'r siarter ddrafft gael ei datblygu.Rydym hefyd am bwysleisio y dylai’r ymrwymiadau y mae'r BBC bellach wedi eu gwneud i wella gwasanaethau i Gymru a’r gwledydd eraill gael eu gorfodi yn y siarter ei hun.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. While you may be happy to know that I won’t be shadowing you from here on in, considering the work that I’ve done and with yourself and others previously, I felt it incumbent on me to speak today in terms of the work that we have done but also the work we need to do. Because, obviously, you sat on our committee with us previously, in the last Assembly, and many of the recommendations from that report are in your statement, I’m pleased to see, and are becoming a priority for the Welsh Government in this sense. For example, I’d be curious to know, you mentioned that you’re going to give us details on the independent broadcasting forum, but I would like to know how you intend to see the make-up of the committee, because, of course, previously the Institute of Welsh Affairs had to do a freedom of information request on the Welsh Government to find out what had happened to the advisory panel. We don’t want to be in that position again; we want to have a firm and robust independent grouping of people, not only the usual suspects but people who are able to perhaps give a new perspective to the media in Wales, so that that group can inform you and Assembly Members, and that scrutiny can be improved as a consequence. So, I’d like to know some more detail as to how it will report, how they will be chosen for this group and how they will be tasked with their work going forward. We note that you’re going to be meeting with the UK Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. I’m sure you’ll be making the case to him about the financial situation needed in terms of enhancing that financial support to English language provision in Wales, as has been clarified by Assembly Members across this Chamber only recently in a letter to Tony Hall. So, could you clarify exactly what you’ll be saying, and will you be pressing for that £300 million annual additional funding for the BBC in Wales? The other question I had was: I totally agree that you’re calling for a drama commissioning editor to be based in Wales, but I would like to see that sort of network or team around that commissioning process coming to Wales also, because, as you will know from sitting on the committee, we heard from Equity who said to us that actors are still having to go to London for auditions for programmes that are made in Wales. I mean, it’s absurd that they’re all convening on trains going to London when they—actors—could be having those auditions here in Wales. So, not only do we need the drama commissioning here in Wales, we need the production teams around those processes as well. I note in your report—your statement, sorry—that provision should be increased for ITV Cymru Wales, especially considering their healthy financial position. I wonder what more you can tell us about how or in what way that provision should be increased. I’d have to declare an interest in relation to Channel 4 as my brother’s a journalist for Channel 4 News, but I do think that it’s incumbent on us all as AMs to be trying to encourage them to see merit in stories here in Wales based in Wales, as opposed to, perhaps, centring on England as quite often they do. I won’t be winning any brownie points with him by saying that—sorry. [Laughter.] Also, I’d like to hear your thoughts on the committee structures for the Assembly. I think it’s important we hear from the Government Minister, because how do you see your role, then, in being held to account by this institution in relation to the media in Wales, because we want to show that even though we don’t have the powers over broadcasting, we’ve shown that we have got the status and the backing to be able to hold various broadcasters to account. And my final question would be on S4C. I think it’s important that we have to reiterate that they should retain their independence, and to ensure that that is always part of any discussion that you have with them as a Minister.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you very much, and thank you for your kind words at the beginning of your remarks. Can I say, Bethan, that I enjoyed the conversations that we had in committee earlier this year, and last year as well? I think we’ve always found a great deal of consensus in different parts of this Chamber on broadcasting and on the media in general, and how this place would like to address those issues. I remember when I chaired the Broadcasting Committee in a previous Assembly, there was a great deal of consensus amongst, I think, the four or five of us on that committee about the way forward, and that consensus has continued through to the report that was published by Christine Chapman just before our last election.Can I say this? I very much welcome proposals to establish a committee of this place to investigate these matters and to hold not only myself as a Minister to account, but also broadcasters, and to ensure that the debates and the discussions, which all too often happen behind closed doors, happen in public. We need to ensure that there’s a correct balance in place between the Government placing what could be, or would be, seen as undue pressure on broadcasters to act in a particular way and a democratic institution holding those same broadcasters to account. So, I think there’s a very important role for this place to play in that level of accountability. I’ve never found it difficult to ensure that, within the overall structures of the United Kingdom, where broadcasting is not devolved, broadcasters recognise that they should be accountable to the Parliaments of the United Kingdom for portrayal issues and issues of content, because of the wider cultural issues that are referred to there and also the wider issues of the United Kingdom where this Parliament and other Parliaments have a right and proper interest. So, I hope that as a Minister, where I will pursue the programme of the Government, I will be not only held to account by the committees of this place, but also that we will work in a more cohesive manner in holding others to account for what they deliver to Wales.In terms of the independent media forum—and I say it’s a media forum rather than simply a broadcasting forum—it’s important that we do have independent voices that speak with authority, with knowledge, and speak openly about the advice that they provide to me as a Minister. I would invite all Members this afternoon to write to me with any ideas that they might have for how that forum would operate and perhaps even people they might wish to see on it—I don’t know, that’s a matter for you. But, certainly, it is my intention that this would operate in a wholly open and transparent way. This is not meant to be a forum that avoids difficult decisions or a forum that provides advice that would only be seen by a Minister subject to FOI request. I don’t want to go down that road. What I want to see is a more open, transparent and informed debate about the future of the media in Wales. One of the things that we’ve seen, where many of us have discussed the role of the media in recent events and particularly in conjunction with the referendum taking place later this week—I believe that the media has an absolutely fundamental role to play in a modern, open, informed and democratic society. That means that as politicians and as electoral representatives, we have a responsibility, but also those who exercise power through the media also have responsibilities, and they need to recognise that they need to be accountable for the actions and decisions that they take. I look forward to my meeting with John Whittingdale, as Secretary of State. I will be making the points that you have outlined, and in meeting the BBC as well. I think the BBC do need to recognise that it’s one thing to say that they want to increase the English language provision in Wales, but that has to be met then with the funding that ensures that that programming is delivered and that production values are enhanced and not reduced as a consequence of those financial decisions. I would probably go a little further than perhaps you’ve suggested in terms of some of the structural changes that are needed for the management within the BBC. Clearly, these issues are matters for the BBC and not for politicians, but I would like to see BBC Wales having levels of authority and accountability that enable decisions to be taken about the shape of BBC services in Wales and serving Wales. That doesn’t simply mean deciding which programme competes with ‘Coronation Street’; it affects the shape of the schedule but also the schedule itself. That is the sort of managerial decision that I would like to see, but I would also like to see a change of culture within the BBC, which I think is absolutely essential.You’ve mentioned ITV, Channel 4 and S4C. The points that we make about the BBC are equally true for all public service broadcasters, and it’s particularly disappointing—. Your brother’s, of course, a much respected, excellent journalist working for Channel 4, but we don’t see much of him in Wales, unfortunately, and we would like to see more of him in Wales. Channel 4 produces some excellent news coverage, which doesn’t have a regular place on mainstream broadcasting all too often, particularly on the international agenda and development issues around global development issues. But that does not mean it does not have a responsibility to the taxpayers of the United Kingdom and Wales.

Lee Waters AC: Minister, can I warmly welcome both the tone and the content of your statement? I think it’s high time that we as a National Assembly take a far more muscular approach to the way that the broadcasters treat Wales. I know it’s certainly been said in the years since devolution that, when directors general go to meet a Scottish Government, they get a roasting and when they come and meet Welsh Ministers they get a nice cup of tea and a polite response. I think we’ve seen that the result of that is that Scotland’s demands are taken far more seriously than ours. I was very pleased last week when two thirds of Assembly Members wrote a letter to Tony Hall asking for further details on the commitments that he had made.Your commitment to setting up a new independent media forum is also warmly welcomed and I look forward to hearing the details of that. In my previous incarnation as the director of the Institute of Welsh Affairs I was involved in the media policy group and had, I must confess, some role in putting in freedom of information requests to find out what was going on in the Welsh Government. The IWA, as a very small independent think tank, has had to shoulder the burden of shining a spotlight on this very important area, and I’d like to see Welsh universities take a far greater role in doing that because they are doing work in this area, but it’s not co-ordinated and it’s not properly focused on practical benefits. So, I hope that you’d fully involve all the Welsh university ministers in that forum.You mentioned the letter that Tony Hall sent to the First Minister, in which he said that he would protect spending for Wales relative to other areas. Of course, that doesn’t take into account that, in the last 10 years, there has been a 25 per cent cut in the spending of the BBC in Wales and a 25 per cent reduction in English language television hours. I should say that figure relates to English language spending, where there’s been a quarter cut. So, it’s welcome that he’ll protect the spending for Wales, and, of course, we must recognise that the BBC has been put through the ringer by the Conservative Government in Westminster and is facing significant cuts. But simply protecting an already diminished budget isn’t good enough, and his letter is full of policy commitment and we’ve heard policy commitments from the BBC before. What we need are operational manifestations of that that make a difference to their audiences, which they have fully recognised have not been served well in recent years by the BBC.Just finally, to touch on a point that Bethan Jenkins has made and you have made around drama production in Wales, it is, as you say, very welcome that drama production has been moved into Wales, and our creative economy has benefited from that, but the portrayal of Wales in drama to the whole of the UK is also essential and has not been improved by the production of network programmes in Wales. Tony Hall says in his letter to the First Minister that he is considering a drama commissioner for Wales, working as part of the commissioning team to try and nurture and bring along talent because it takes time to develop these commissions. However, unless budgets are associated with that, it could simply be a sop where the BBC’s commissioning person in Cardiff is simply being turned down all the time. So, we do need to put pressure on to make sure that those high-level policy commitments are reflected also in spending decisions. Thank you.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you very much. I’m grateful, also, for your very kind remarks. I’m not usually associated with a muscular approach to any particular policy field. I’m more usually associated with a cup of tea and a cake, but I certainly hope that we will be able to have a conversation with the BBC that is intelligent and based upon respect for their charter commitments and their mission, but also respect for licence fee payers in Wales and the BBC’s commitment to the whole of the United Kingdom. In many ways, clearly, as a Parliament in this place, we talk about these matters in relation to Wales, but it is my concern that the BBC represents the whole of the United Kingdom and is a British broadcaster, and is not simply a broadcaster for the middle classes within the M25. I say that very clearly, because, although we are concerned here with the portrayal of Wales and spending in Wales, many of the issues that we will raise here might also be raised by licence fee payers elsewhere in England, Scotland or Northern Ireland. That’s why I do say repeatedly that the BBC, sometimes, does need to recognise that a change of culture within the BBC is necessary, not simply to move facilities out of London, but to move minds out of London as well, and I hope that that will happen and there will be a recognition of that.The work, Lee, that you carried out with the IWA, I thought, was groundbreaking and I thought contributed hugely to the work that Bethan referred to—the work that we did as a committee—and also enabled us to have the sorts of conversations that we were able to have in that committee. I would hope that a media forum that we could create within Government would provide a similar sort of role and a similar sort of contribution to the debate that we need to have in the future in Wales. There is no limitation, if you like, on the sort of people we would like to have within this forum, and, certainly, I agree with you that the universities do play an important role and need to play an important role in this conversation and debate in the future.The points—I’ll just finish on this remark here—that you make about spending are absolutely fundamental to delivering what we would like to see. It is a matter of celebration that we have Roath Lock opposite us here in Cardiff Bay, that we see drama production here in Wales, funded by the BBC and supported by the BBC. However—however—as a constituent part of the United Kingdom, it is totally unacceptable that the BBC does not portray life in modern Wales as a part of its schedule, year after year after year after year. It is entirely unacceptable. The BBC have recognised that it’s unacceptable, and it is a matter now for the BBC to put that right. In doing so, the BBC also has to ensure that the funding is available to do that and that there is funding in Wales to make programming for the Welsh audience, but also that decisions are made and funding is available to make programming in Wales for UK audiences as well. What we want to see is the BBC living up to its role as a British broadcaster and one that represents and recognises life across these islands today.

Russell George AC: Can I also thank the Minister for his statement and also, formally, welcome him to his new role and say I look forward to working with him again as well? Now, I would join with you, Minister, in welcoming the UK Government’s White Paper, which provides the BBC with long-term stability and an explicit commitment, of course, to providing a stronger voice for Wales, within Wales and through greater opportunities for portraying Wales across the UK—I know you alluded to this in your last answer—but especially of course in UK news coverage. I know that the regeneration investment fund for Wales scandal, for example, would have been a UK headline had it happened in England, and I think the performance of devolved nations seems to, sometimes, escape attention.It is, I think, the very least we should expect that the new unitary board of the BBC will have representation from Wales and that the continued partnership between the BBC and S4C will be protected after a united approach, I think, from this Assembly in supporting the Welsh language broadcaster. S4C is, of course, mainly funded by public money, but it is its ambition—. It’s got ambition, it wants improvement, and I would, therefore, be interested in hearing from the Minister what steps he intends to take to ensure that S4C is fully encouraged and supported in finding extra income streams so that it can and is able to contribute to its long-term financial future.The inclusion in the White Paper of portrayal objectives across all areas of network commissioning and a commitment to increase investment in English language tv programmes are promising. I should say that I agree with the Minister that it will now be necessary to put some meat on the bones and outline how this translates into concrete financial commitments towards programming for Wales, in addition to network programming. As I think the Minister rightly implies, in spite of the BBC’s dominance in Wales, it cannot be treated in isolation. In stark contrast to the situation in Scotland, where the ITV service has increased its output specifically for Scotland, ITV Wales’s performance and programming objectives have declined by 40 per cent since 2009, with little sign of there being an increase in the foreseeable future. I would therefore be grateful if the Minister could perhaps outline what discussions he’s had with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, the Office of Communications and others to define enhanced commissioning commitments to Wales from other broadcasters, including the BBC and ITV, both of whom have a role in providing much-needed plurality in a media landscape that is dominated, of course, by the BBC.Finally, I wonder whether the Minister could outline how he intends to ensure that all public service broadcasters, and the regulator, are required to report and give evidence to the National Assembly for Wales on devolved matters during the fifth Assembly. Equally important is how reports from those evidence sessions will be weighted by the UK Government and parliamentary colleagues who remain largely responsible for broadcasting, of course, as a non-devolved area. Can I ask, perhaps, what progress has been made on protocols to ensure that due weight is given to recommendations from this place to the UK Government regarding those matters where public service broadcasters’ roles affect and enter into certain devolved areas?

Alun Davies AC: Thank you. I’m very grateful to the Conservatives’ spokesperson for his kind remarks. I look forward to our conversations over the coming period on this and, I’m sure, other matters as well. I’ll start, if I could, by answering your last question first. The Member will be aware that there is a memorandum of understanding in place between the Welsh Government and the BBC and DCMS that will describe many of the processes and lines of accountability that he has outlined. But, I would prefer to focus not so much on the hard lines, which he has described, but on a debate and a discussion that is a much richer debate and discussion than perhaps we’ve had in the past on the nature of broadcasting and the media and how it affects the lives of people here in Wales and elsewhere. He’s absolutely right to describe broadcasting as being a non-devolved subject, but much of the matters that broadcasting affects, of course, are devolved. I’ve always seen broadcasting as being much more of a shared responsibility, whereby much of the economic regulation should and would clearly best take place in either the United Kingdom or, in some cases, at a European level. But, many of the cultural issues that are affected by broadcasting, and democratic issues affected by broadcasting, should rightly lie here in this place. So, it has always been an area where there has been a shared interest. The Member’s also aware that broadcasting has a much greater political salience in Wales than in many other parts of the United Kingdom for some of the very clear and obvious historical and cultural reasons.So, people in Wales will expect this place to take a full and active part in the debate over broadcasting. We have put in place the structures that will enable us to do so. It is my expectation that the BBC, other public service broadcasters and Ofcom will play a full part in those lines of accountability, which will be both hard lines, which are set out in policy and sometimes in law, but at the same time will want to participate in a much wider debate about the evolving nature of the media in our society. One of those debates is about the news values that the Member referred to in his opening remarks. I’ve found it difficult sometimes to accept that the news values that should drive and guide decision making within the BBC always represent what is of importance to people throughout the whole of the United Kingdom. Decisions taken by this place are decisions that affect much of the lives of people in Wales and yet the proceedings of this place are rarely covered by network programming and network news in the UK by the BBC. I think that’s a significant failure and I think it’s an ongoing failure, and I’m glad that the BBC have at times recognised that failure. What is necessary are structures to ensure that this doesn’t happen, but also the cultural change that will enable the BBC to better fulfil its obligations and its mission in the future. I hope that is what we will achieve by way of the debate that we are having through this charter renewal process.The Conservative spokesperson, Llywydd, spoke about the partnership between the BBC and S4C. I know that this is all too often seen as a threat to S4C. I do not see it in those terms. I believe that a partnership between two of our key public service broadcasters can bring great benefits to people in Wales and can ensure that we maximise the investment that takes place in the creation of Welsh language content, and enabling that Welsh language content to reach viewers and users both in Wales and elsewhere. I want to see S4C maintain its independence—its operational independence, its editorial independence. However, that does not mean that there needs to be a very great gulf between the interests of S4C and the interests of the BBC, and we would expect and anticipate that both broadcasters work closely together. The current partnership arrangement that is in place is something that I believe is succeeding and is enabling us to deliver high-quality content, but to do so at a cost to the licence-fee payer that is both reasonable and that will sustain S4C into the future. What I want to see is to ensure that we do have the structures in place at the moment that ensure that S4C is able to produce programming to the highest production values, and I am not convinced that the current UK Government is committed to that. I want to see the current UK Government move away from the position where it was a few years ago, where it was, frankly, bullying S4C. We need to ensure that the BBC, in taking decisions over funding S4C, takes decisions that enable S4C to continue to produce high-quality Welsh language programming. I hope that the financial commitments that I’ve described in answer to other questions will also provide the sort of certainty that you’re looking for.

I’ll now call three more Members, as long as the questions and the answers are concise. Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Firstly, I wish to add my support for the statement and for the Minister for his strong work in this regard. I look forward to and very much welcome the opportunity for increased oversight and mandate of the Senedd pertaining to our wider Wales media scrutiny. I also welcome the pledged Plenary debate on the draft charter and the new service licence for Wales that has been pledged, and, as a former member of the BBC broadcasting council for Wales during the last charter review, and Hutton, I was proud to be party to the commissioning of ‘Doctor Who’, amongst many, and the legacy programming that followed has firmly cemented the quality drama agenda within Wales to a global market. However, such high-quality drama, almost like steel, is something that we will strategically continue to propagate, I am sure, in Wales, with universal bilingual programmes such as ‘Hinterland’. So, would the Minister agree with me that we must continue to work to strengthen the draft charter in a number of areas—and I’ll be brief—to develop further the universality of programming and consequent distribution in the regions and globally, that Wales does indeed need a drama commissioner-editor with teeth and the funds to go with it, that he will continue to lobby for no reductions to BBC investment in local services, and also, as has been said by many in the Chamber today, that the portrayal of Wales has to be improved—on, as many have referenced, that we actually do exist within the UK, that we are a nation of outstanding talents, arts, music, literature, comedy, amazing communities, fantastic landscapes, as well as amazing football, and Wales is not a basket case of benefit cheats and scroungers, as is portrayed nationally, and, further, that the overall coverage of political content, events and campaigns—and he’s mentioned the EU referendum—can be vastly improved?I stand here today, as many do, wearing a white rose in memory of a mother of two and a wife, a campaigner for social cohesion, and the country’s mood is set within a politically harsh landscape, and that’s increasingly one of division, lack of cohesion, and racial hate crime. So, the media does have a critical role here, and I don’t understand how an exact replica of Nazi propaganda is acceptable for public broadcast, especially at a time of charter review, and is being purveyed around. When did the BBC public service mandate of political balance and Ofcom become so overly ridden with caution? Is it over-powerful lawyers, I ask myself? So, I’m sure the Minister is determined, post Leveson, that any future public service charter mandate will regain any perceived loss of teeth and our journalists will continue to investigate and seek the truth. Because the media does have a key role and I, for one, wish to continue to see high-quality political coverage in Wales strengthen and develop and become accessible to all the people of Wales.

I didn’t quite get a concise question there, but I’m hoping for a concise answer now from the Minister.

Alun Davies AC: Llywydd, you’re very kind.I want to see high-quality investigative journalism that’s well funded. I think the work of Michael Crick on Channel 4 recently over the past few months is a great example of how investigative journalism can hold politicians to account. It’s the role, I hope, of a strong, effective, independent media in our society to hold Government and to hold political representatives to account. That has to be guaranteed within any charter or with any new system of regulation. In terms of the policy approach that we take, clearly, I agree with the points that the Member has made about high-quality drama—production both within Wales and from Wales—and that we need to ensure that we have a charter that recognises the place of Wales and has a service agreement in Wales for Wales that will ensure that we are seen on the screens, as we should be.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Just a few words from me and a question, as one who was an employee with the BBC for 20 years, and that’s just to remind us of what our broadcasters should be providing to the Welsh audience. S4C, of course, carries out two jobs in a way. First of all, it broadcasts through the medium of Welsh to an audience that wants to view Welsh language programming, but, in so doing, it broadcasts about Wales to the people of Wales and that’s what’s missing in the English language, of course. We got it by accident at one point in the last years of analogue, through BBC Choice and BBC 2W, where you had two BBC2s running concurrently. I remember, as a young broadcaster, taking part in programmes that filled those peak hours and that was programming about Wales. I do hope that the Minister will give a commitment that he will push, in future, to get us back to that situation where we can have two channels—one Welsh and one English—for Welsh audiences. I endorse what was said about the film and drama industries in Wales. We have been very successful in developing the drama industry in Wales, but we haven’t been particularly successful in developing a Welsh drama industry, and I hope that the Minister would agree that that should be the next step forward. I will also welcome the Minister’s commitment to press the BBC in London on a new attitude to what exactly its function is in Wales and on a budget to ensure that that ambition can be achieved.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you very much. I do agree with the points that the Member has made and the initial point that he made is an exceptionally important one, because, when we talk about broadcasting from Wales and about Wales, we’re not just talking about reporting to the people of Wales what’s happening in Wales, but we’re also talking about looking at the world through Welsh eyes, and that is entirely different and very different to looking at the world through London eyes. That’s very important—that our voice is heard and that we are looking at the world and discussing the world as we see it. I very much hope that we will be able to do that and do that more during the next few years. I do think that this is important—not just for us here in Wales, but it’s important for the whole of Britain. It is important that people in London and in England do see how we live and how we view the world, and that the broadcasting environment for the future will be one that reflects the culture of the United Kingdom as a whole. I do want to see a more independent, fresh news output that looks at what happens here and ensures that there is more discussion within our society and within our communities about the important issues facing us.

And, finally, Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much. Just a few quick points. I was pleased to sign Lee Waters’s letter, and I hope that that will get a result. ‘Casualty’ is being filmed up on the Gabalfa estate next week, so everybody’s very thrilled about that, but I just reiterate the points that people have made that it could be filmed anywhere in terms of portraying anything, really, about Welsh life and how Wales is seen. Obviously, this is a point that’s made strongly in the Welsh Affairs Committee report that’s just been published. So, I don’t know if he’s got a comment about whether there’s anything we can actually do about that. That was the first point. Secondly, I just wanted to raise the issue about how people actually get their news in Wales. I think the BBC reckons, doesn’t it, that they reach about 60 per cent of people in Wales with Radio Cymru, Radio Wales and all the other news programmes. What about that other 40 per cent, and what can we do to reach them so that they do get some Welsh current affairs news, which will help, really, to make the public in Wales more informed for the elections and for the referendum and having specifically Welsh related issues?

Alun Davies AC: I’m grateful to the Member for the points that she makes. She is right to refer to the House of Commons Welsh Affairs Committee and their report published last week. I think it demonstrates the depth, as well as the breadth, of consensus, not only in this Chamber, but elsewhere, about many of the challenges that we face. The point about ‘Casualty’ is well made, and it’s a similar point, of course, with ‘Doctor Who’ and others, where you have high-quality drama being made in Wales, which is something we welcome and it’s something that we very strongly wish to see continue, but it doesn’t equate to the portrayal of Wales as a country, as a nation, and as a community. It’s not too much—. I think the days of us saying we want to have both are gone; we need to have. As a constituent part of the United Kingdom, we shouldn’t even be needing to make these points in the way that we repeatedly do. The BBC has a duty to represent the United Kingdom as the United Kingdom is today, and that means that the screens reflect the lives that we lead, and that means that we do see Gabalfa or Blackwood or Tredegar or Llanelli or—[Interruption.] Or Grangetown, yes, or even Anglesey. And, without wishing to go around the Chamber—I know Mike Hedges will make a point about ‘Match of the Day’. But it is an important point that our lives are reflected by our public broadcaster, and that is what we expect to see. The point about the news environment is hugely important. I’ll finish on this, without trying your patience any further, Presiding Officer. The way that people access news is changing, and changing rapidly. We all know that the news environment is as influenced by social media and Facebook as it is by the 10 o’clock bulletin, and we need to recognise that. It’s certainly one of the reasons why we have a media forum and not simply a broadcasting forum, and it’s one of the things that we need to look at. But all broadcasters have an absolute responsibility to ensure that, at the time that we’re facing at the moment—we’re facing a huge decision on Thursday—the people who will be voting on Thursday are well informed and not misled as to the issues that they are discussing and voting upon, and that is something that I would like to see in the run-up to the next Welsh parliamentary election as well. Thank you.

Thank you to the Minister.

8. 7. Statement: The Welsh Health Survey

Yr eitem nesaf ar yr agenda yw’r datganiad gan Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Iechyd, Llesiant a Chwaraeon ar arolwg iechyd Cymru. Rwy’n galw ar yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, Vaughan Gething, i wneud y datganiad.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. The Welsh health survey gives us an overview of the state of the nation’s health. It covers health status, health service use and health-related behaviour. I’m making a statement today on the headline messages, but there will be more learning and analysis of the survey later in the year. The recently published Welsh health survey 2015 shows us that 19 per cent of adults currently smoke. That’s down from 26 per cent in 2003 to 2004. This significant reduction means that we have surpassed the Welsh Government aim to reduce smoking rates to 20 per cent by 2016. We are now well on track to achieve the ambitious target to reduce smoking levels to 16 per cent by 2020—and we didn’t always think that we’d get there. This progress is testament to the efforts of a range of professionals who have worked to discourage in particular young people from starting to smoke, and the advice and support given to smokers who want help to quit. I’m pleased to recognise that the people of Wales have embraced a change in culture so that smoke-free environments are now the norm.It’s important that we maintain and enhance our efforts. We know that smoking kills and causes harm. We need to act so that young people do not start smoking and smokers who want to quit receive the best support available. With this in mind, we’re currently reviewing the tobacco control action plan to ensure that we continue to make every effort to further reduce smoking levels in Wales. We have, for the first time, specific information about the number of e-cigarette users in Wales. Fifteen per cent of adults have ever tried e-cigarettes; with 6 per cent being current users, and 59 per cent of current users are also current smokers. These figures are comparable to the findings from surveys elsewhere in the UK, and we will continue to keep the evidence on e-cigarette use under review.Whilst levels of alcohol consumption have not fallen this year, they do remain at the lowest levels since these questions were introduced in 2008. Overall, alcohol consumption amongst younger adults has reduced, but there has been a slight increase in older adults. Tackling alcohol misuse remains a priority for the Welsh Government and our actions will be set out in the new substance misuse delivery plan. The actions will include a strong focus on tackling the harms associated with risky drinking behaviours, particularly amongst older adults. We expect to publish that plan before the summer recess.Our actions to reduce the harms caused by alcohol are underpinned by new UK chief medical officers’ guidelines, which were published in January this year. These include a single low-risk limit of 14 units a week for both men and women, and make clear that drinking any level of alcohol increases the risk of a range of cancers and other disease. The new guidelines also reinforce the message that there is no safe level of alcohol to drink during pregnancy.We will continue to press the case for introducing a minimum unit price for alcohol in Wales. Such action would specifically target the heaviest drinkers to prevent the harms caused by excessive alcohol intake, whilst minimising the impact on moderate drinkers.The survey also provides us with an indication of the proportion of the population who are either overweight or obese. The Minister for Social Services and Public Health highlighted last week that there has been a slow but steady increase in the number of adults classed as overweight or obese since the survey started in 2003-04. During this 11-year period, the proportion of adults classed as overweight or obese has risen from 54 per cent to 59 per cent, and obesity alone has increased from 18 per cent to 24 per cent. Levels also increase with deprivation and are highest in middle age.Put simply, we know that the cause of people being overweight and obese is an imbalance between calories consumed and calories expended. So it’s not surprising that the data also show levels of physical activity are not improving, and only a third of adults report eating their five portions of fruit and vegetables each day, which is a widely used indicator of a healthy balanced diet.Improving the well-being of people in Wales, and enabling them to eat better and move more is a key manifesto commitment for us, and my portfolio brings together a number of the components to take this agenda forward. The recently enacted Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 has at its core an intention to improve the health, social, economic, environmental and cultural well-being of Wales. To fulfil the ambitions of the Act, we will have to become a society in which physical and mental well-being is maximised and behaviours that benefit future health are understood. Increasing physical activity levels and improving our diet are key components to achieving the ambitions within the Act.A national physical activity director has been jointly appointed by the Welsh Government, Sport Wales and Public Health Wales to develop recommendations to improve levels of physical activity. Together with work on education and behaviour change, we are also working to influence the food environment. We are expanding nutritional standards in more settings, and we’re currently developing them for both care homes and early-years settings. We will also need to work with the food industry at both Welsh and UK levels. We need to influence the availability of healthier products and encourage the use of the UK Government’s front-of-pack nutrition labelling scheme and responsible promotion and marketing. My predecessor, of course, pressed for stronger UK Government action on sugar and a strengthening of the restriction on advertising of unhealthy foods to children. We were pleased to hear the announcement of the UK sugar levy. However, the levy in itself will not resolve all of our challenges around sugar consumption.Whilst I am of course encouraged to see a decline in the number of adults smoking in Wales, overall it is clear that many of us continue to eat and drink too much and are not exercising enough. Supporting and encouraging people to take small steps to improve their lifestyle and reduce the risk of preventable illness remains a priority for the Welsh Government. However, this is not something the Welsh Government can do alone. It requires joint action from a wide range of organisations from the public, private and voluntary sectors and, of course, from individuals themselves.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you for the statement. This is a very important survey. I appreciate that we’re only discussing the headlines today and I’m looking forward to a fuller analysis in due course. There are positive signs here on the percentage that smoke, for example, with reduction continuing, but, of course, with a long way to go. I do support the further steps by the Government in this area in trying to hit the more ambitious targets, but as one who voted against the public health Bill because of the e-cigarettes element, I would encourage the Government to see e-cigarettes as an important tool against smoking. I’m pleased to see that the Government is keeping an open mind, as we heard from the Minister today. There is some light here in terms of over-consumption of alcohol. But if I could turn now to the negative elements in this report.Os trown at yr elfen negyddol fawr sy’n dod allan o'r arolwg hwn, yr ystadegau ar ordewdra yw honno. Nid newydd ddechrau canu y mae’r clychau larwm ar ordewdra, maent bellach yn canu’n uchel iawn, a dylai hyn yn sicr fod yn ddigon byddarol i orfodi llywodraethau i redeg, nid i guddio, ond i fynd ar drywydd camau brys. Mae'n sgandal cenedlaethol, mae'n sefyllfa drychinebus, rwy’n meddwl y gallwn ni i gyd gytuno ar hynny, sy’n bygwth lles cenedlaethau'r presennol a'r dyfodol. Nodaf y camau a amlinellir gan y Gweinidog, gan gynnwys penodi cyfarwyddwr gweithgarwch corfforol cenedlaethol. Rwy’n gresynu, fodd bynnag, nad yw gordewdra ymysg plant yn cael sylw penodol na sylw manwl heddiw yn y datganiad hwn. Mae'n amlwg bod gennym epidemig gordewdra yng Nghymru ymysg plant ac mae angen mynd i'r afael â hyn ar frys mewn polisi ac o ran adnoddau. A yw'r Gweinidog yn rhannu fy awydd i geisio ffyrdd newydd o gynyddu cyllid yn sylweddol yn y maes hwn?O ran brys, tybed pa wersi a ddysgwyd o strategaethau i derfynu ysmygu, oherwydd yn fy marn i ni allwn fforddio gadael i'r frwydr yn erbyn gordewdra ddigwydd ar amserlen debyg i'r mesurau lleihau ysmygu, sydd wedi cymryd degawdau i ddod i rym.O ran pŵer trethiant, tybaco, ynghyd ag alcohol, wrth gwrs—maent wedi’u trethu’n drwm.Ac er iddi gymryd cryn dipyn o amser, rwy'n falch bod Llafur o'r diwedd wedi newid o ddilorni i gefnogi ein galwadau am ardoll ar ddiodydd llawn siwgr.A gaf i ofyn sut y mae'r Gweinidog yn awr yn bwriadu gweithio gyda Llywodraeth y DU ar gyfer cyflwyno’n gynnar yr ardoll y mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi addo ymchwilio iddi?Efallai y bydd y Gweinidog yn gwybod bod y Swyddfa Seneddol Gwyddoniaeth a Thechnoleg wedi cyhoeddi adroddiad heddiw ar siwgr a gordewdra.Mae'n galw am gyfyngu ar faint o siwgr y mae pobl yn ei gymryd.Mae'n galw—corff arall eto—am gyflwyno ardoll.Mae hefyd yn tynnu sylw at nodweddion tebyg yn y dulliau gweithredu gan y diwydiant bwyd a'r diwydiant tybaco i ohirio cyflwyno rheoleiddio. Felly, a gaf i ofyn yn olaf a fyddai Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn rhoi sylwadau ar y camau y byddai'n hoffi eu cymryd, neu y mae’n eu cymryd, i ymdrin  â'r ymdrechion hyn i rwystro gweithredu gan y Llywodraeth?

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for his series of comments and questions and the broadly positive start, and I too look forward to seeing more learning from the survey as it undergoes more analysis to help inform where we are and where we want to be.I’ll start with your point about e-cigarettes. Just to reiterate that we continue to keep the evidence on e-cigarette use under review, both in terms of their prevalence and the way that their used, their impact potentially on young people and the way in which they’re marketed and the flavourings, but in particular the impact of e-cigarette use. We’ve heard a number of reports about the impact of e-cigarette use itself, with the statement that they are 20 per cent less harmful than tobacco, but of course that doesn’t mean to say that they are harm free. So, there is a need to understand what they’re used for, the prevalence and what the impact is. We don’t yet understand what the long-term use of them will be, but we will continue to look at the evidence and be led by evidence on this issue.I’ll deal with your points about food, nutrition and sugar together, if I may. Just to slightly tweak where we are, it wasn’t that we rubbished the idea of a sugar levy; it was the idea about how it could be hypothecated. We were never in favour of hypothecating the use of a sugar levy in the way that it was initially presented, but there was never any disagreement between our two parties that a levy on high-sugar-content products could and should be considered. What we have now is a sugar levy on drinks, but it doesn’t consider every other part of food as well. Part of the action my predecessor has urged the UK Government to undertake is to do more to promote alternatives to sugar, which we promote ourselves in Wales, but to also look again at regulation for sugar in more than just fizzy drinks.This goes back to the point that food, nutrition and many of the regulatory powers over food and nutrition and nutrition standards are not devolved. There’s a balance of what we can and can’t do, which is why we do still need to work with the UK Government. I can confirm that there are conversations ongoing between Governments about the introduction of the levy that’s been proposed and how that might or might not work, and that work will be taken forward between both my department and also that of the Secretary for Finance and Local Government as well. I hope that we can come back and tell Assembly Members more when we’ve actually had more constructive conversations, to be able to tell you something more than the fact that we are talking at this point.I want to deal with your point about obesity. We’ve recognised for some time as a country that we have a significant challenge with obesity—the impact on public health outcomes on a whole range of disease and health condition indicators and the impact it has on people’s day-to-day lives, the reality that it is more prevalent in more deprived communities than in others. So, there is no room for any complacency. Part of the difficulty is that it goes back to this point of how we use these results to understand what we need to do more of and how we work more successfully alongside the public to encourage them to make choices for themselves, but not in such a way that we seem to be preaching or nannying the public and telling them what they must do. We have to make healthier choices easier choices. If we look at children, for example, just over one in four children are either overweight or obese. That’s our understanding of the child measurement programme, which means that about 73 per cent are a healthy weight. But our problem is that we’ve not seen the sort of reductions in overweight and obese children that we wish to see, and to combat that we need to see what happens pre school, during school and outside school as well, and we need a culture change broadly across society and within families as well—so an understanding of what the impact is upon a child of an unhealthy diet and the impact on the child of not undertaking enough exercise. So, there is a range of different things for us to do, but just because the picture is complex, it does not mean that we should not wish to do something about it and that we will not wish to do something about it. It’s as I said at the end of my initial statement: this is about the public, voluntary organisations, the public and private sectors and individuals themselves understanding and reinforcing what they could and should do and how we make those choices easier for them and the fairly immediate health impacts and health gain that people can see in being a healthier weight.

Conservative spokesperson, Angela Burns.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Minister, I’d like to thank you for this statement. I too very much welcome some of the news contained within it. I’m delighted to see that smoking has definitely gone down to 19 per cent of adults from 26 per cent. It is interesting to note that that’s a complete correlation with the number of people who use e-cigarettes. I’m delighted to hear the comments you made to Rhun ap Iorwerth because I’m rather hoping that, with a new Cabinet Secretary in place, we might have a fresh view on this vaping issue, because, if it helps people to give up smoking, it is surely worth considering rather than the somewhat obdurate resistance to it last time around.Turning over to the rest of the statement, I would like to particularly raise the issue of obesity to talk about diabetes. I was very surprised, actually, to read in the Welsh health survey that they said there was only a slight increase in diabetes, which does not chime with much of the rhetoric that we hear from various organisations saying that diabetes is sort of on the march in Wales. I wonder, Minister, if you would consider drilling down into those figures and perhaps seeing whether we can find out how many of those people have diabetes type 1 versus type 2, because, as you and I both know, type 2 is something that can be helped to be got rid of by having a better diet, better exercise and more advice and support, as opposed to type 1.Also here on the correlation with young people being obese, I raised this on your statement last week about the declining amount of hours in school sports available. We need to recognise that, again, within this survey, it says that, actually, between 2004, when the survey started, and last year, 2015, the amount of exercise young people under the age of 16 take has decreased, rather than increased. So, we appear to be going backwards. So, I really would like to ask, Minister, what you’re going to be able to do to liaise with your colleague in education as to how we make sure that young people, particularly the very young, grow up with this healthy habit of good exercise that will help to combat this particular area. It can’t be done in isolation; we need an integrated view. That’s why I wonder: is that the reason why you’ve appointed a national physical activity director? Is this a new post with new money, or is this somebody who’s already in existence who’s going to be taking on this responsibility? Because, again, although I agree with the thrust of your argument here, I would have thought that, again, this is an educative role, and what we need to do is ensure that, within education, we really make young people, children, get to grips with understanding what constitutes good food, affordability, cooking skills, physical activity, getting over the bullying and the embarrassment that young women, in particular, face when they try to partake in sports. Would a national physical activity director be looking at all of that? And, again, when we look at areas of social deprivation—those are people who struggle to access sport—poverty, et cetera. So, again, I would have thought that that would have been worked through in all of the various social programmes that we have, rather than creating a whole new post. In short, should it not be embedded in Government policy, rather than having one tsar, or do you think that tsar will be able to have an effect, and how will you measure that tsar? I thought that it was very interesting to see, again within the Welsh health survey, that they’re basically saying all our kids are pretty healthy. Yet, that’s not quite chiming with the children, young people and education’s report on the Designed to Smile programme in the last Assembly, where we found that some 41 per cent of Welsh five-year-olds have significant experience of tooth decay, some 8,000 children have to have anaesthetics in order to remove multiple decayed teeth, and you and I will both know that, in fact, it is through your mouth that you get so many illnesses, so many infections, and having bad teeth actually sets you up as an adult for ill health. So, I would like to know what you might be doing with the Designed to Smile programme and what you might be doing—because this is, if you like, a gateway into good health. Having good teeth equals good health, and I’m very surprised that it’s not been picked up in the health survey. As you’re going to be reconstituting this health survey, I wonder if you would consider whether or not you should be asking questions on the dentistry side of it.Finally, I would like to just remark upon the fact that you are intending to relaunch this entire survey—future health surveys. You say that this is the last such Welsh health survey in this format, and I would like to know that in the new format—will you be having very similar questions so that we can still continue to plot a trajectory, or are you going to be starting from base with a whole new set, so we can’t year-on-year comparisons? I think that’s really important for us to know, because, ultimately, in our role of scrutiny, it is by being able to scrutinise your performance, year on year, that we can have a picture of the effect of the policies put forward by your Government. To be frank, Cabinet Secretary, your Government does have form in getting rid of inconvenient comparable statistics, and I would like to know if, going forward, there will still be able to be that comparative measure. Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the series of questions. I would like to acknowledge the good news on smoking, in particular, although it’s not fair to say that it’s simply a direct correlation with e-cigarette use. As I said earlier, a part of the issue is that there are more and more young people becoming adults who don’t smoke, and that really does affect smoking prevalence rates—a really welcome cultural change that is happening, although I don’t have any complacency about the rates or prevalence of smoking amongst young people.On obesity and diabetes, and the relationship between the two, we are, of course, talking about obesity and its relationship, in particular, to type 2 diabetes, as opposed to type 1. That’s been the significant growth that we’ve seen. For all the fact that the rate of growth appears to have levelled off in the last year or two, that still leaves us with a huge problem, because we know that the more people we have living with type 2 diabetes, the more likely they are to call upon the health service, to live in periods of ill health and all of the significant complications that go with diabetes. We had the national Diabetes Week last week, and I don’t think we can ever tire of repeating that it isn’t a trivial condition. I visited the team in Ysbyty Gwynedd and looked at the work they’re doing—really impressive work—in Betsi Cadwaladr on having surgery as opposed to amputations. It’s pretty affecting to see the pictures of what’s happened with the surgery. If the alternative was an amputation, that has a major impact on someone’s life expectancy as well as their quality of life and their ability to work and get around socially. You know, the reality is that people lose their sight, they suffer amputations as a result of diabetes. It is a really, really serious condition, and that’s where the major concern comes about the impact on people’s quality of life, people’s ability to work and to live, and actually the cost it produces for health services. Already, about 10 per cent of NHS spend, we think, is spent on areas linked to diabetes.On your points generally about school sports and physical activity, and the links between our work and that of both the children and communities portfolio and, of course, the education Secretary, we recognise that there are very obvious and direct links about how we encourage and make it easy for children to be physically active and, again, how we think about the nature of that activity. So, we don’t simply think about sport, important though that is as part of the picture, but physical activity going much further and much broader than that. That is the conversation that we are having, as we go through curriculum reform as well, to understand what that could look like and what we think that should look like, and then how we measure appropriate points to understand whether our children are being more physically active. But it goes back again to the point that I made at the start in response to Rhun ap Iorwerth as well: this is about what the Government could and should do, in all its forms, as well as what individuals will do as well. So, it’s not just the children but also the families, and the importance that they place on physical activity and, again, how easy we make it for them to undertake that activity as well.The new post of physical activity director is a joint post, as I said earlier, but it does go to the core of not just what the Government want to see, but actually Sport Wales recognising that part of their mission is not just about elite sport. At least three out of the four main parts of their mission are broadly about participation and, if you like, the link into public health areas of activity. That’s what it’s about: grass-roots activity, not just about elite sport. I think there’s been a willingness in the last few years in Sport Wales to be more upfront about that being part of their mission and how they should be judged as well. So, this post is about trying to bring together what we could and should do across the different arms of Government. Sport Wales, as an Assembly sponsored public body, and then to ensure that we then have some meaningful targets and milestones. So, you will see something that will come back to try and give you and other Members an idea of where we think we are now and what we want to do in various parts of Government, and our partners as well.I should also say, on your point about deprived communities, we have a range of specific programmes, from StreetGames to Communities First, but there’s also something here about mainstream governing bodies, for example the football at the moment. The Football Association of Wales—the biggest participation sport in Wales. It’s a fairly easy game to play; you don’t need a lot of equipment. So, it’s thinking about the way in which we use sport, and the easily accessible sport, to try and get people interested in activity. That isn’t always about organised league activity, it is about that broader message about sport being physical activity and recreation as part of what we want to see. That has to go into deprived communities. I actually suspect that some of our major sports have a slightly better story to tell than they’re able to present. I look forward to interrogate, with my colleague the Minister of public health, to understand what really is happening and whether they’re actually meeting their own missions that they have as well.Finally, I take your point about Designed to Smile, but, actually, it’s been one of the programmes that are able to say that there’s been a closing of the gap between more deprived communities and others. That doesn’t say that it’s perfect, so we do want to understand what we need to do more of in the future.Finally, on your point about the new survey, there will be a new survey as part of the new national survey—a more coherent way to undertake this information in one chunk rather than three or four major surveys. We still expect high-quality data that are useful both for the Government, in understanding what we are doing and what we wish to do, but it could be for the public and Members of this place to understand the impact that we’re having and to aid the process of scrutiny. There’s certainly no ambition to try and hide what we are doing. It is simply a way of ensuring that we have appropriate and high-quality data. If there is a reason to change the way those data are presented, we should be upfront about the reason for doing that. There is no desire to try and avoid comparability, but it may well be that we collect different sorts of data that are more relevant. If that’s what we’re going to do, we need to be upfront about it and explain that that’s what we’re going to do. But I would still expect that you’ll have plenty to be able to ask us about and scrutinise us on. I’ve got no doubt about that.

Finally for this statement, the UKIP spokesperson, Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones AC: Diolch, Lywydd, and thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. The Welsh health survey data once again highlight the need to improve public health messages. Of course, the challenges of increasing levels of obesity are not unique to Wales. However, it’s truly shocking to learn that nearly 60 per cent of Welsh adults are overweight or obese. Cabinet Secretary, with many schools selling off their playing fields, what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact this will have on physical activity rates amongst young people? We have many programmes where we encourage children to play, children to be active and children to walk more, but we have to provide them with facilities. With regard to smoking, it is welcome news that the number of smokers continues to fall. I was pleased to see that the survey had, for the first time, included data on e-cigarettes, and that the Welsh Government is at last heeding the evidence. E-cigarettes are one of the most effective quitting aids in the smoker’s arsenal. Cabinet Secretary, with the demise of the Welsh health survey, how will the Welsh Government continue to gather evidence about e-cigarette use?We on this side of the Chamber are disappointed that the Welsh health survey has been discontinued by the Welsh Government. Our objections are about its replacement, the national survey of Wales. We don’t believe, with its smaller sample size, that the data will be as robust. The Welsh health survey, over the course of each year, captured the views of around 15,000 adults and 3,000 children, with a minimum of 600 adults from each local authority in Wales. The national survey of Wales will only capture the views of around 12,000 adults. The survey takes place mainly over the summer, and it appears that there are no set minimums for collecting data from each local authority. Cabinet Secretary, can you assure us that, in future, the data collected on health will be as detailed and robust as that collected in the Welsh health survey? Cabinet Secretary, how will the Welsh Government be capturing the views of young people, who have a right, as we do, to have a say on our NHS? Finally, Cabinet Secretary, the Welsh Government undertook a consultation in 2014 to seek the views of users of the Welsh health survey. The vast majority of respondents were supportive of the survey. In fact, the only criticism was about the timeliness of releasing the data. With these points in mind, can you update us on why the decision was taken to end the survey? Thank you. Diolch yn fawr.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for those particular points and questions. On the selling of school playing fields, this is a Government that is investing in the infrastructure of our school estates, and I’ve visited a whole number of areas where we’re actually seeing an improvement in people’s ability to use outdoor space in particular for physical activity and recreation. There’s no excuse to be given for a lack of physical activity amongst school-age children in terms of school playing fields at this point in time. I actually think we need to concentrate on what we can positively do in the way that the curriculum works and the way that families work for schools, and with the broader message we have about the importance of physical activity and recreation, and to recognise that it isn’t simply an issue for schools. It is an issue that, by and large, most of these lessons about life are learned outside school, and it’s about that working alongside the family to understand the impact, the positive impact, of physical activity and recreation. I’ve dealt with the e-cigarettes issue and I’ve been very clear: we’ll keep the evidence under review, and as I said earlier, you’ll have noticed in my statements that just under six in 10 e-cigarette users are also smokers as well. So, we need to understand if there is a relationship with quitting, and if there is not, we also need to understand the long-term impact on people’s health of e-cigarette use. That is part, I think, of what even those who were opposed to the measures of the previous public health Bill on e-cigarettes will have been concerned about: the way in which there was pretty clear evidence that some e-cigarette manufacturers were targeting young people in the way that the flavours were actively marketed. There are real and serious issues for us to consider here, so let’s not pretend that we should not do that. But as I said earlier, we’ll consider the evidence on e-cigarette use and their impact. On the national survey and the ending of the specific Welsh health survey, we took a view on having a more efficient way of conducting information and understanding what the public think and do. I don’t think you could describe a national survey with detailed information of over 12,000 adults as not being something that is robust and high quality. It’s certainly our expectation that we’ll have a robust and high-quality national survey. If you ever have an opportunity—I don’t know if opportunity is the right word—but, if you have an opportunity to talk to a Welsh Government statistician, I think you’ll find that they’re very interested in the quality of their data and they can talk to you at length. I’d be very happy to arrange for you to have a very long session with a Welsh Government statistician to highlight their view on the national survey if you really are concerned about its impact and its usefulness for understanding health behaviours in the past and what it tells us about the future of our public services.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

9. 8. Statement: Update on ‘Towards Sustainable Growth: An Action Plan for the Food and Drink Industry 2014-2020’

The next item on the agenda is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs, entitled, ‘Update on “Towards Sustainable Growth: An Action Plan for the Food and Drink Industry 2014-2020”’. I call on Cabinet Secretary Lesley Griffiths to move the statement.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.The food and drink action plan delivers our food strategy in Wales. Published well in advance of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, it is delivering on all seven of the well-being goals. The plan’s 48 actions encompass five priorities, including a leadership board of industry and sector leads; strong provenance for Wales’s food and drink; more training, upskilling and innovation; sustainable growth for businesses and trade; and a focus on food safety and security. The Food and Drink Wales industry board, under the chairmanship of Andy Richardson, is taking forward work streams including business and investment, customers and markets, and people and skills. This work will inform me of the further actions needed for continued growth. Food sector growth contributes to the goal of a prosperous Wales. This is a highly significant industry in the Welsh economy. The farm-to-fork food chain has a turnover in excess of £15.5 billion and employs over 220,000 people and is Wales’s biggest employer. The action plan sets an ambitious target to grow the turnover of the food and farming sector by 30 per cent to £7 billion annually and to achieve this by 2020. Two years on and growth has exceeded expectations at 17 per cent to £6.1 billion and is already more than half way towards the 2020 target.So, what does this growth look like? In 2014-15, our growth programme contributed directly to over £10 million in sales growth and the creation of 550 jobs. Business support includes the Wales-Ireland, European-funded clusters programme, supported by Ifor Ffowcs-Williams, the EU head of analysis and clusters. This programme has already engaged nearly half of the food manufacturers in Wales. Current clusters include premium products, high-growth businesses, innovation in healthier nutritional products, and a seafood-specific cluster.I am also pleased to announce that we will be launching an export cluster later this year. Further development of export markets will continue to be essential in striving towards the plan’s vision. The industry generates over £260 million from exports, with almost 90 per cent to the European Union. This is an increase of over 102 per cent since 2005. In the past year, our export and trade events programmes helped Welsh businesses deliver over £7 million of new sales, and over £15 million of prospects are being developed. The support we offer food manufacturers includes bespoke advice, showcasing, assistance to attend trade events, dedicated export missions to target markets, and facilitated business meetings. Businesses in other parts of the UK are now looking at Wales as an exemplar of best practice. Foreign direct investment is an important contributor to growth. We are targeted in our approach, as FDI requires relationship building over time. A notable success in recent times is Calbee, the Japanese snack food manufacturer established in Deeside in 2015, which created up to 100 jobs. Calbee is exactly the sort of company we are pleased to help. It is innovative; producing healthy, vegetable-based snacks to meet the increasing demand from consumers for snacking.The food industry has a responsibility towards achieving a healthier Wales. Diet and nutrition are major determinants of lifespan and quality of life. Our food-for-the-future conference emphasised the shared responsibility throughout the food chain to support healthier eating. Manufacturers must look to product reformulation while retailers and food service must provide clear and informative labelling and encourage the healthy choices. We work with the National Procurement Service through its food category forum to factor healthy eating criteria into the tendering process. Seventy-three public bodies are now committed to using NPS in areas of common and repeatable expenditure. I will continue to sponsor Food Innovation Wales, which provides research and development facilities and expertise for food manufacturers, including the manufacture of healthier products. In the past year, £12 million of additional growth in Welsh businesses resulted from new product and process development.Food poverty can be due to lack of affordability or limited access to enable healthy choices. We support many initiatives to tackle food poverty—some well established such as community growing and community food co-operatives. The new food poverty alliance is a coming together of public, private and third sector organisations and is taking forward work to address holiday hunger in schoolchildren, which was piloted by Food Cardiff last year. The alliance will also investigate how to improve the uptake of free school meals and will work with retailers to partner them in tackling food poverty initiatives.We are providing significant support to food businesses to enable them to be globally responsible. The Resource Efficient Wales service helps businesses achieve efficiencies in water and energy use and achieve more effective waste management. We are signatories to Courtauld 2025, which is an ambitious voluntary agreement that brings together organisations and businesses across the food system to cut waste and greenhouse gas emissions associated with food and drink by at least one fifth by 2025. We are encouraging businesses to become signatories. Global responsibility extends to the design of our grant schemes. The food business investment scheme includes sustainability measures in its application screening process. The first round has identified £197 million of investment and potentially 1,333 new job opportunities.The food industry’s contribution to cohesive communities is readily apparent in our support for food festivals. An independent evaluation in 2015 reported that, collectively, they are estimated to support 417 jobs within the Welsh economy and bring in a net additional £25 million per annum through trading, but also through business generated in the local economies surrounding festivals.Food security and food safety are priorities in the plan and are paramount towards achieving a resilient Wales. We work closely with the Food Standards Agency to improve food safety. The food hygiene ratings scheme has proved a tremendous success in raising standards in catering establishments and is an exemplar for other nations. The resilience of the Welsh food and drink industry is private sector dominated and well-developed contingency plans are in place. Food is one of the critical sectors represented on our internal resilience steering group. We participate in the global food security programme and in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs’s food chain emergency liaison group, which assesses risks to food supply and mitigates threats. Food events are a great vehicle to promote our vibrant culture and thriving Welsh language. The Food and Drink Wales identity is now well recognised internationally and is widely respected. We launched our website last year to communicate and inform industry, stakeholders and the public about our Wales food nation and have recorded over 5,000 page views and 1,500 Twitter followers. We are actively working with many quality Welsh producers to secure many more protected food name products and Wales is becoming synonymous with a rich food heritage.Deputy Presiding Officer, I have presented a snapshot today of the achievements of the food and drink action plan. The plan is about so much more than food; it is about delivering on our promises to future generations.

Thank you. I call the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’d like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement. I feel confident in responding to this statement, because this is a sector of the economy where I make the biggest personal contribution, namely food and drink. I look forward very much to celebrating with the National Farmers Union tomorrow in this Assembly—we’ll be celebrating Welsh food—and we’ll be celebrating Welsh drink with the Campaign for Real Ale later in the evening. So, I’m very pleased to see that this sector, which has grown, as the Minister has said in her statement, over the past two years, continues to develop and continues to develop apace. May I start, therefore, with a question on this statement and its relevance to our membership of the European Union? We are all aware, of course, that things such as PGI for Welsh lamb assists in promoting that particular product, and, of course, over 90 per cent of Welsh meat and dairy products that are exported are actually exported to the European Union, which shows me that this is a crucially important aspect as to why we should remain members of the European Union. I’d like to ask the Secretary what assessment has been made of the importance of membership of the European Union and growth in this sector. If I could just ask her one specific question that perhaps she won’t be able to answer today, but if she could look at what’s happened to the 'Carmarthen ham' application for PGI status, because I do understand that that bid is still hanging, like the 'Carmarthen ham' itself, and we do need to make some progress in order to improve things there.If I could turn to the second issue that I wanted to raise with the Cabinet Secretary, namely what we are doing on food waste, the Cabinet Secretary mentioned the Courtauld agreement of 2025 and this is a commitment that places no duties whatsoever in terms of reducing food waste in terms of businesses and the food production sector. I’m very disappointed that the Westminster Government hasn’t legislated, as our colleagues in France have, in order to limit food waste and also to ensure that the over 1 million tonnes of food wasted every year, which is appropriate for human consumption, is referred to the people who need that food. In the world in which we all live, where our communities are full of food banks, it is a disgrace that we continue to waste so much food. Whilst I accept that the Welsh Government only has the option to be part of Courtauld 2025, I would like to hear from the Cabinet Secretary that this Government is eager to legislate, as they’ve done in France, to actually place a duty on major food traders and producers to reduce food waste, to recycle food waste and also to give any food suitable for human consumption to those people who need it.Whilst we are talking of people who are going hungry, may I refer now to another section of the statement—the section on healthy eating? It is disappointing to learn that eating fresh fruit and vegetables according to the guidance, in terms of having five a day—although I think that may have gone up to seven a day according to some now—. It is disappointing that we continue to struggle to reach even that five-a-day target in Wales, and we’ve reduced from 36 per cent of the population to 32 per cent of the population achieving it. So, we’re moving backwards in terms of encouraging people to eat more healthily, and that relates back, of course, to the statement that we heard from the health Secretary a little earlier.Plaid Cymru, during the last campaign, had proposed that it would be possible to provide fruit bowls free of charge—to put free fruit bowls in every school and every classroom in Wales. Do you think that that is a good idea and can that be achieved, particularly using fresh fruit from Wales? We have wonderful strawberries at the moment. We will also have lovely pears and apples from Wales, and they could be provided within our schools.The other area that I do want to turn to briefly is food security. You mentioned this in your statement. The latest figures demonstrate that only 46 per cent of food eaten in Britain is actually produced here, and we have fallen back significantly in terms of local food production within Wales and within Britain. Now, some would argue that, in a single market and a globalised world, the importation of food is going to play an important part. I do accept that, of course, but I would like to hear that it is the Government’s aim to increase the amount of food that is produced in Wales and that is consumed in Wales, and that that is a positive objective for our farmers, for our environment and also for healthy eating. I was very disappointed to hear the leader of UKIP earlier, in asking a question of the First Minister, suggesting that it may be possible to move away entirely from providing support to Welsh farmers and to import food cheaply, rather than producing our own healthy produce that is also good for the environment here in Wales.The final point that I want to raise, Deputy Presiding Officer—thank you for your patience—is one on how we use food to present a positive image of our nation. We know that football has been doing that very successfully recently, but I also think that food has a very important role to play here.May I ask you, are you of the opinion, as the Minister responsible for this area, that we sufficiently celebrate the excellent food and drink that we have here in Wales? You mentioned a new identity for Welsh food and drink, and I don’t think that that’s really taken hold. When Joe Ledley’s beard has more followers on Twitter than Welsh food has, then I think there’s a lot more work to be done to promote this and to celebrate Welsh produce. There are—I’m sure you’ll be part of them, Minister—hundreds of food fairs and events happening the length and breadth of Wales over the next few months. I look forward to going to the seafood fair in Aberaeron, in Milford Haven, in Lampeter—there are festivals in all parts of Wales. But are we really actually bringing these together with our farmers’ markets, and are you content with the way that we market Welsh food within Wales and outwith Wales? There is some work to be done here. We lost a very strong brand in the past and I don’t think we’ve regained that ground, as of yet.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I thank Simon Thomas for his questions and comments. I’m glad to see your jokes haven’t improved since last week’s oral statement, but I do look forward to celebrating both the NFU and CAMRA events to be held here tomorrow. Just in relation to Carmarthen ham, I’m expecting several items of food to receive the PGI later this year. I can’t give you a definitive date but I’m very hopeful it will be later this year.In relation to the EU, clearly work has had to be done ahead of Thursday’s vote but I’m personally very confident that we won’t have to look that way later on. But we know that if we did have Brexit it would have a massive impact on the food and drink industry. The single market is the world’s biggest free trade area in GDP terms and is the UK’s and Wales’s largest trading partner. We know that businesses in the EU enjoy a home market of just over 500 million people, and that’s got the ability to sell goods and services without tariffs or other trade restrictions and with common safety standards. And, as you stated, it is the largest market for Welsh exports. So, we know what damage that would do to the Welsh food and drink sector. You mentioned Courtauld 2025 and your disappointment that the UK Government hadn’t legislated in this area like France, and I’m very keen to have a look at what France has done. I think it’s very important that we do everything we can to reduce the environmental impact with food businesses and also food waste. Some research that was published earlier this year showed that 1.9 million tonnes of food is wasted in the UK grocery supply chain every year. That’s a huge amount. Fortunately, from that about 47,000 tonnes is redistributed to people who need it, and that equates to about 90 million meals a year. But I’m very keen to do what we can to reduce that wastage, and I met with the FSA this morning where, I think, one aspect where we could improve things is I think people get very confused with best-by date and use-by date and sell-by date—you know, we have all these different things on food and I think it’s really important that people understand what all these different things mean. You raised an issue around healthy eating and, certainly, when I was listening to the Cabinet Secretary for health’s statement several things came up where you can see the crossover to my portfolio around obesity and, you’re quite right, we should be doing all we can to encourage people to eat at least five a day. Your suggestion around fruit bowls in schools sounds eminently sensible and I suppose, like everything, it’s probably down to cost. But I’d be very happy to have a discussion with the Cabinet Secretary for Education in relation to that.You talked about food security and there are increasing global pressures on food supply, but I believe that Wales is very well placed to respond to challenges of changing climate, for instance. I think the livestock industry in Wales dominates as the geography and climate of Wales is very well suited to grass-based systems and the sustainable management of our natural resources is critical to the future success of our economy and creating a future for all our communities. I think football, actually, will have an impact on the Welsh food sector. We are seeing Wales on a stage that perhaps many people won’t have seen Wales on before, with the football, and more people will know where Wales is, and we can only build on that. So, I think it would be a really good opportunity over the next couple of months. As you say, we’ll have lots of summer shows and festivals, and I’m sure our paths will cross at many of them, but I think it’s a really good opportunity. We can always do more to celebrate. I do think we do a great deal to celebrate our wonderful food and drink sector, but, of course, we can always do more, and I’m very keen to do so.

Okay, thank you. Conservative spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement today and wish her all the best in her new role? I look forward to working with her constructively wherever I can to help make our rural communities more prosperous and sustainable in the future. Like the Member for Mid and West Wales, I too probably make a significant contribution to this sector—perhaps too much.In relation to the action plan for the food and drink industry, whilst I very much accept that there has been some progress, there is still plenty of work to be done with regard to the procurement of Welsh food and drink for public sector contracts. I appreciate that, last year, the National Procurement Service brought the procurement of food within its scope and that 73 public bodies are now committed to using the National Procurement Service. However, can the Cabinet Secretary be more specific and tell us how the Welsh Government is ensuring that there are robust supplier selection procedures in place for food contracts across Wales so that Welsh farmers and food producers don’t miss out on these very important contracts?A key area of this action plan is in relation to education, training and skills for the food and drink sector, and that is something that I very much welcome. I’m pleased to see from last year’s update that the Welsh baccalaureate has been reviewed to include food and drink modules, and I’d welcome an update on that progress. However, I believe that more needs to be done at a younger level to teach children and young people about where their food comes from. The Cabinet Secretary touched earlier on promoting healthy eating generally, so can she tell us what discussions she’s had with her colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Education about raising the profile of food and agriculture within the education system, perhaps through the curriculum or through voluntary schemes and work placements?In the summary of responses to this action plan, there were concerns expressed about the difficulty in understanding what training is available and how to access it. In particular, respondents felt that the Government was not joined up in its approach, particularly with the Department for Education and Skills and also with partner bodies, including sector skills councils. In light of this, perhaps the Cabinet Secretary can tell us what specific improvements have been made since the launch of the action plan in relation to these specific concerns.If we want our food and drink industry to flourish then the development of a skilled workforce is crucial, and the Welsh Government must build stronger links with businesses and education providers to meet the skills gap in the industry. I’d be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary would commit to perhaps publishing job creation statistics and employment opportunity figures with each annual update so that Members can actually scrutinise the Welsh Government’s action in this particular area.I appreciate that there is a separate food tourism action plan for Wales 2015-20, and I fully support the importance of food tourism in Wales and the need for a separate strategy. However, can the Cabinet Secretary tell us how she’s ensuring that other strategies, like the food tourism action plan and the food procurement strategy, are actually co-ordinated with other Welsh Government policies and that they are actually joined up? As the Member for Mid and West Wales said earlier, food festivals play an important role in promoting our food and drink industry, so it’s important that they get as much support as possible. It’s been suggested to me that the money each food festival receives from the Welsh Government is capped at a certain figure. Could the Cabinet Secretary confirm whether this is the case? Surely funds should be provided to these festivals on a case-by-case basis and it’s crucial that there is flexibility in the funding process to ensure that festivals are properly supported. Farmers’ markets also play an important part in showcasing Welsh food and drink and, in particular, helping smaller producers to promote regional produce. There are some fantastic farmers’ markets across Wales—quite a few in my own constituency—so can the Cabinet Secretary tell us how this strategy supports those farmers’ markets specifically?Deputy Presiding Officer, at the heart of any action plan for the food and drink industry must be a strong export strategy, and I appreciate that the Welsh Government is launching an export cluster later this year. However, will she tell us a bit more about how the Welsh Government is identifying business opportunities in both the domestic and the international markets? As the plan states, export market development is advanced by Government departments working together, and Governments at all levels working together. I appreciate that the Welsh Government participates in the global food security programme and in DEFRA’s food chain emergency liaison group, however, can she tell us what outcomes have been realised in relation to food security and food safety for Welsh producers?Therefore, in closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, can I thank the Minister, once again, for her statement? I look forward to seeing some of the themes within this plan further developed to help the Welsh food and drink industry flourish in the future.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I thank Paul Davies for his questions and comments, and I, too, very much look forward to working with him in this very important area. You asked about the procurement of Welsh produce and products in the public sector, and, as I said, we’ve been working very closely with the National Procurement Service, which, you’ll be aware, was established back in 2013, I think it was, and that brought together the procurement of common and repetitive spend right across the public sector on a once-for-Wales basis. The NPS set up a food category forum to develop a food strategy, and that will inform the process of bringing the procurement of food within its scope throughout 2016. The food division sits on the NPS food category forum, and we are actively working with the NPS and key stakeholders.We’ve now got several new lots that are being procured during this year: prepared sandwiches, sandwich fillings and buffet provision, for instance, and frozen plated meals. We’re making sure that we work—the health service with local authorities—to make sure that we are best placed to use Welsh products.What the NPS is aiming, initially, for is to let contracts for a two-year period, then there’s the option to have a one-year extension, and we are now beginning to develop the tender documentation. The food category forum will be developing this documentation as we are going forward, and my officials are fully engaged in this process and working with NPS to identify suitable Welsh suppliers to provide them with the opportunity to bid for the frameworks.You raised the point about education, training, skills and innovation, and that’s incredibly important. I think what we need to make sure is that we have a very skilled and capable workforce going forward, and that’s all about developing key partnerships within the skill supply chain. That means engaging with both secondary and higher education, and I’ve had some informal discussions with the Minister for education. I’m very keen to see young people brought in to show them what can be offered as a career within the food and drink sector, and you mentioned the work that has been done within the revised Welsh baccalaureate, where we’ve identified ways to introduce food modules, for instance. We’ve also worked with the sector skills councils to support the development of career ambassadors in the food industry, so that we can champion the wealth of opportunities that—as I said, it’s Wales’s biggest employer: 222,000 people if you include retail and restaurants and all aspects of food and drink. So, it’s the biggest employer we have across Wales. What the sector skills councils have done is they’ve developed industrial skill panels in the dairy sector, in technical skills and manufacturing skills, and that then will inform the development of the industrial skills that will be required within education and training.You raised a question regarding food tourism, and, obviously, we have the food tourism action plan. That focuses on the importance of Welsh food and drink in terms of the visitor experience, and food and drink, I think, should be emblematic of the Welsh culture and have an international reputation for quality and authenticity that really reflects and enhances the very positive values of Welsh provenance. I think some excellent examples I can give you of collaboration between tourism and the food industry across Wales include businesses such as Dylan’s Restaurant in Menai Bridge, which has been very successful in winning the bronze award at the recent national tourism awards in the ‘eating out’ category.Food and tourism, I think, are particularly important in Wales due to the economic importance of both of the sectors. It really does provide an essential part of the tourism offer that I think we have here in Wales, because it offers, I think, probably the most common point of contact with visitors.In relation to exports, you mentioned the Hybu Cig Cymru enhanced export programme. What we want here, and we set that out within the Welsh red meat strategic action plan, is we want the industry to seek to increase sales. Export sales will obviously be a key component to that. I just had some conversations earlier today with someone who owns an abattoir, regarding red meat sales and the red meat sector specifically, because we know that exports are absolutely vital to farming and the processing industry in Wales. They account, approximately, for one third of all production. So, increasing returns to industry by maximising exports is really important in Wales. I’m very pleased to see that the Welsh Government’s three-year investment programme in supporting exports and developing new markets for quality Welsh lamb and beef has already produced an excellent return.In relation to food festivals, I agree that there should be some flexibility about them. I’ve got a very rigid budget, unfortunately. I’d like to have more money, but I think you’re right: it’s about ensuring that it’s not just large food festivals that receive money; it’s about those small farmers’ markets. I remember, when I first got elected, back in 2007, somebody coming to me to try and get a farmers’ market up and running and there was just no funding available. So, it’s something that I have said to officials I’d be very keen to see, even if it’s just a small pot of money, to give them that sort of start going forward, because we know that a farmers’ market could really enhance a town centre experience and we’re looking into how we can regenerate our town centres. So, I think it is important to have that flexibility.

Okay. Thank you. We haven’t had any backbenchers speak, so I intend to call three backbenchers, but, again, the plea is for concise questions and concise answers. So, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Lywydd. I thank the Secretary for her statement. It’s such an important sector for us in Wales, so it’s great to hear of the rapid growth in the sector. For those of us who enjoy food, the renaissance of local food production in Wales is a thing of great joy even if it leads to rapid growth of a slightly less welcome kind perhaps. [Laughter.]You’ve spoken about skills quite extensively, but I just have one particular point to develop on that. Obviously, filling the skills gap was a major priority in the action plan, and that has two components: attracting skilled employees, which you’ve talked about, but also developing the skills of existing employees in the workforce. Since many businesses in this sector are small and, indeed, are microbusinesses and micro-employers, they’ll face particular challenges in providing training and professional development to their workforce. So, will the Welsh Government be taking particular steps, bearing in mind the profile of employers in the sector, to support small and micro-employers in training and developing their workforce skills?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Jeremy Miles, for that question. I think you raise a really important point around ensuring that we do create innovative, and maybe novel, approaches to encourage industry training for SME businesses. What we’re going to do is have a cluster approach, and we’re already trialling this with food businesses to support business growth. Upskilling and training is absolutely fundamental if we’re going to see that growth, and clusters are also identifying and addressing training needs in the most cost-effective way possible. We’re having some pilots in fine foods, NutriWales and the seafood, impact and export sectors, where a number of businesses are directly engaged in that skills development. As a Government, we already have a number of key skills programmes, but it is about building on that. We’ve also been able to use Jobs Growth Wales very successfully in this area too, and that’s helped employers to take on extra employees. That’s obviously provided valuable work experience opportunities for people right across Wales between the ages of 16 and 24.

Julie Morgan AC: I particularly welcome the actions on food poverty, and I am pleased that she mentioned the initiative that was taken in Cardiff by Food Cardiff—the school holidays initiative. One of the things that I’m very concerned about is waste. I held a short debate on waste during the last Assembly and there was a huge amount of public interest. As a result, I had some sort of training sessions in my constituency. Obviously, it’s not just the public themselves who waste food, but Tesco in particular—I think the amount of food it wastes went up 4 per cent in the year up to April 2016. So, I was wondering whether there was anything that could be done to incentivise businesses not to waste food. I know that you are going to review all of the food awards—I think that’s part of your action plan—and I just wondered if you could build into any of the food awards manufacturers who prevent waste.The other issue, as part of this debate, is I held meetings with WRAP Cymru and other organisations, and another issue that I think is very important for food is the packaging of food. I know we want to have the Welsh brand on the packaging, but is there anything that can be done to try to reduce the amount of packaging that is used while still retaining the identification of the Welsh brand?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Julie Morgan, for those points. I think it’s not just about food waste; I mentioned in my answer to Simon Thomas about the huge amount of food waste that there is, although some is redistributed, and obviously some goes for animal feed, it’s also about encouraging businesses to resource much more efficiently than they do. I’m not quite sure about incentivising large organisations such as Tesco, but I think it’s really important that we work with them to show that, if they do resource efficiently, there are many benefits to their own business, there are benefits to Wales, and of course there are benefits to the individuals who live in Wales. It’s about saving energy in Wales and being that much more sustainable and therefore creating less waste. I was very interested in the pilot in Cardiff last year about the holiday hungry. I had one in my own constituency, which was run by a church. When you think about it, for a number of children who receive free school meals, what happens during the school holidays? It is a very successful scheme that’s been run for about a year now, in Wrexham, and I’m sure there are examples right across Wales. But, I think it is really important that we work, again, with big companies, maybe big supermarkets, to see if we can somehow redistribute that food in that way. I mentioned earlier that I met with the FSA this morning, and that was something we talked about, because they feel that, perhaps, some of the big supermarkets are a bit afraid of giving food that is, perhaps, out of date, or past its sell-by date or past its use-by date. So, again, I think it’s really important that we get that right, get that labelling right, about what it all means. For instance, if it’s ‘use by’, that you do follow the instructions carefully, because that tends to be for food that goes off quickly, for instance, whereas if you have the ‘best before’, that tends to be frozen, dried, or tinned, and that’s not really about safety, it’s more about quality, and it can be used past the date. So, I think there is a great deal more that we can do. I’m very interested in the research that came out of WRAP in relation to that, but I think we definitely want to see, as we go through the action plan, that reduction in food waste.

Okay, thank you. And finally, Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank the Secretary for her statement this afternoon and for putting forward the action plan? If I can, I’ll just ask you about two points. First of all, this is probably a good opportunity to join Simon Thomas in flagging up the CAMRA event at the Assembly tomorrow evening—always a popular event; I can’t imagine why. I know that you’re going to be speaking at that event, Minister, so thank you for that. Real ale has been a huge success story. It looked like it was on the way out 30 or 40 years ago, but that has been turned around. How is your action plan going to ensure that other areas of food and drink that haven’t been doing so well in Wales over the last few years can be turned around as well? It’s very easy to put forward action plans and to talk about these things, but what actual positive changes will that make?Secondly, you’re right to cite Wales as a potential exemplar of best practice. Again, how is that going to be achieved? You mentioned the food festivals. I, of course, in my area have the fantastic Abergavenny Food Festival. The Minister emeritus, Alun Davies, over there, in a previous ministerial life, used to very much enjoy that festival. I’m sure that you will be joining me—and probably him as well—at this festival later in the year. What are you doing to make sure that best practice is taken from food festivals? We talk about Abergavenny Food Festival now as a success story, but it did go through some difficult patches as well. There are other food festivals, both large and small, and farmers’ markets, trying to get off the ground across Wales and trying to improve. It’d be very easy if best practice is spread from one area to another so that those up-and-coming festivals don’t make some of the same mistakes as previous ones have.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Yes, I know that the Member is sponsoring the CAMRA event, and I very much look forward to attending and speaking at it tomorrow evening. You’re quite right about ale. I attended a cider and beer festival, and I think it was my very first engagement in this portfolio. As someone who doesn’t normally drink ale, I was absolutely astonished to see how many different types there were. I did try and pour one, but not very well unfortunately. I think you are right: it’s about looking at the sectors within the food and drink sector as a whole that aren’t doing so well, but I don’t think that that is an area that isn’t. I think we have given them support, and we are seeing several microbreweries appearing right across Wales. In relation to best practice, you will have heard me speak in all my ministerial portfolios about the need for best practice. I think it’s an amazing traveller. People say it doesn’t travel well; I disagree, as it is something you can steal. I am very much looking forward to going to the food festivals over the coming months, starting, obviously, with the Royal Welsh Show, which I think is the best rural show that we have in the UK, and, in going to the food festivals, learning myself, listening to people who put these festivals on and seeing what we can take. If there is a food festival that feels it could benefit from another food festival’s experiences, I’d be very happy to ensure that officials get that across.In Wales, we have so many products now with that European protected status, and we have more now coming forward. I mentioned, in reply to Simon Thomas, Carmarthen ham, and we’ve got about 10 UK applications, of which nine are from Wales. So, that shows that we really are punching above our weight.

Thank you very much, and that bring today’s proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:11.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Nathan Gill: Will the First Minister make a statement on wind power in North Wales?

Mark Drakeford: Climate change is perhaps the biggest threat to our future generations, and the Welsh Government is committed to reducing net Welsh emissions by at least 80 per cent by 2050.  Renewable energy sources such as wind power have a critical part to play in achieving this.

Suzy Davies: Will the First Minister provide an update on the proposed South Wales Metro project?

Mark Drakeford: The Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure will be updating the Assembly on this subject, as well as the Wales and borders franchise on 12 July.

Paul Davies: What is the Welsh Government doing to improve the economy of Pembrokeshire?

Mark Drakeford: My priority is to continue to take a broad range of actions to improve the economy, grow prosperity and deliver greater financial security for businesses and individuals in Pembrokeshire and across Wales.

Joyce Watson: What are the Welsh Government's priorities for next year's UK presidency of the EU?

Mark Drakeford: Our priorities for the UK’s presidency will be linked to the new programme for government. Areas such as strengthening the single market, jobs and growth and structural funds are long-standing European priorities for us alongside other key areas such as agriculture, fisheries, sustainable development and support for research and innovation.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Will the First Minister make a statement on developing the economy of South Wales Central?

Mark Drakeford: Our priority is to build on our pro-business approach, to grow prosperity, support jobs and deliver greater financial security for businesses and individuals.

Neil Hamilton: What is the Welsh Government doing to improve broadband speed in Mid and West Wales?

Mark Drakeford: Superfast Cymru is providing access to superfast broadband to communities across mid and west Wales. The average broadband speed for those premises given access as part of the project across the region is 63.61 Mbps.